Roger that link, Brak. Everyone should stand for the National Anthem. Unless it's mandatory, then no one should.
Pikes Peak posted:Sorry, but I have no constructive alternatives to add. And from what I see there is no middle ground, just polar opposites and either one side or the other has to capitulate or we have to live with what we have. That depresses me.
This! We need to look for win-wins. Not for win-losses. Dogmatism sucks, especially in politics. That's why we are stagnant as a society. Here's my opinion on the subject matter:
As an employee, I cannot voice my political viewpoints at work because I represent my employer. If I break this policy I would be disciplined. Free speech does not apply while working for an employer. It's more about the employer's policies. So why should I support free speech at work, when I, and probably most of us, do not get? However, the NFL had stated that they support their players, thus the players are allowed by the NFL to protest. The NFL will have to bear the consequences(costs)- good or bad.
I personally do not like to see players kneeling or sitting down during the Anthem. I view that as being disrespectful. I was prior military and have lost friends and family members, so the Flag and our Anthem symbolizes their sacrifice for our country - at least to me. And I know we are all different. So, standing while embracing each other during the Anthem to me represents more of a win-win. I am also kool with what Aaron stated, and though what Trump stated was very divisive and quite frankly, the delivery was idiotic.
Brak posted:OK, nobody will read my link. I'm an idiot. So, from the article:
Hey!
I was busy reading yer God dang homework assignment!
The CBA is basically the Constitution of the NFL. There is nothing in the CBA that requires employees to do anything specific for the National Anthem.
There is a policy that requires teams to be on the field during the National Anthem. I believe the Steelers broke with that this weekend.
But it's not a rule, nor does it violate the terms of the NFL's Constitution.
BTW, massive thanks to all that have served and protected the rights of all of us to have this debate.
Amendment 1 is the most important one there is. Let us not forget.
Brak.....I don't think I like you and your Libertarian-leaning views.....there's too much freedom for people to make up their own minds. 
Brak posted:I mean, why do "we" even have the song before sporting events?
This zeroes in on the heart of the problem. It is not expressly played to honor those who served. The kneelers see it as pledging an allegiance they don't feel, not honoring veterans.
If, instead of just "Please rise for the National Anthem," the announcer said, "Out of respect for those who have served, please rise," I bet Kaepernick never would have started it and we wouldn't be in this mess.
Not only that, but IPA's are totally overrated. Just wait until Gose fever sweeps over us...and it's coming.
Soon.
This will help.....
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/...unday-ticket-package
DirecTV is offering unprecedented refunds for fans who want to cancel their NFL Sunday Ticket package, if they inform the company that they are doing so due to the recent protests during the national anthem, a source confirmed.
SteveLuke posted:Hungry5 posted:This is a good question though for a large majority of Americans. Why aren't you speaking up for your countrymen?
OK I'll start, but in this case I'll start with my countrywomen.
I will speak up for Janay Roberts, Brandie Underwood, Amelia Molitor, Crystal Espinal, Kasandra Perkins, Nicole Holder, "Kendra," and the many, many other women who have been "oppressed" by NFL players.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new...78?pmSlide=1.2426133
http://www.tmz.com/2016/12/28/...stic-violence-video/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T7AqYSxZi0
When NFL players "protest" (not make feel good commercial to burnish their PR credentials but protest) the brutality so many of their brethren have inflicted upon so many women, I will certainly stand up and take notice.
Until then, I guess I'll just link arms during the anthem, and cheer wildly for Ahmad Brooks when he tackles Joe Mixon, Tyreek Hill, etc.
Self deleted. I'm so tired of intellectual dishonesty if not outright self propaganda.
My you, was not directed at you, SteveLuke.
Blair Kiel posted:This will help.....
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/...unday-ticket-package
DirecTV is offering unprecedented refunds for fans who want to cancel their NFL Sunday Ticket package, if they inform the company that they are doing so due to the recent protests during the national anthem, a source confirmed.
Truly fascinating.
Not to go all deep state, but I can totally see DirctTV selling the results of this offer for political polling purposes.
And if they don't, they're stupid. IMO.
Brak posted:Not only that, but IPA's are totally overrated. Just wait until Gose fever sweeps over us...and it's coming.
Soon.
Funny, but you are soooo fking wrong. IPA's are not overrated. You get more bang for your buck.
They don't need to. Marketing firms know what color undies you're wearing when you pick up a box of Fruit Loops.
Interesting read BK. I think I'll keep my ticket.
The First Amendment is the cornerstone of our democracy and the envy of most people in the world. Trump is trying to shut down/limit the amendment through bullying tactics and tossing out words like "patriots" and SOBs so he can rally folks to his idea that free speech should have limits. That would also enable him to limit protests against him. Many cities and states are now doing just that by passing legislation against protests, even peaceful ones, without a gazillion permits.
With a conservative majority on the SCOTUS and a majority in both houses of government, limiting the First Amendment could be done. Trump is searching for a divisive issue so that he can move those against him to his side; this might be it. And if this scenario were to come to pass, you can kiss the First Amendment -- and our democracy -- goodbye as it slides down that slippery slope to oblivion.
Floridarob posted:The NFL as we know it will probably never be the same.
Offending a significant portion of the population of the country, of whom many purchase your product, will do that.
But this is the way of the world. Destroy anything people hold sacred in the name of change. It isn't necessary to offend people who served, spit on what they hold sacred, just to "raise awareness". There are plenty of ways to do that. But if you choose that path there are consequences. The NDL and professional athletes generally are experiencing some of that now.
And awareness? Um, I thought that police brutality was bad before. I'm active in my community against these things. Nothing changed there.
But my view of Kaepernick, the NFL, the left, and professional athletes? That's changed. Because the truth is this- identity politics is the reason for the division, and that is what is dividing us. That Trump shoved it up their noses and generated this kind of furor proves it. And I don't want ANY of it- from him or the left.
Fandame posted:The First Amendment is the cornerstone of our democracy and the envy of most people in the world. Trump is trying to shut down/limit the amendment through bullying tactics and tossing out words like "patriots" and SOBs so he can rally folks to his idea that free speech should have limits. That would also enable him to limit protests against him. Many cities and states are now doing just that by passing legislation against protests, even peaceful ones, without a gazillion permits.
With a conservative majority on the SCOTUS and a majority in both houses of government, limiting the First Amendment could be done. Trump is searching for a divisive issue so that he can move those against him to his side; this might be it. And if this scenario were to come to pass, you can kiss the First Amendment -- and our democracy -- goodbye as it slides down that slippery slope to oblivion.
Total bullsh*t
Henry posted:SteveLuke posted:Hungry5 posted:This is a good question though for a large majority of Americans. Why aren't you speaking up for your countrymen?
OK I'll start, but in this case I'll start with my countrywomen.
I will speak up for Janay Roberts, Brandie Underwood, Amelia Molitor, Crystal Espinal, Kasandra Perkins, Nicole Holder, "Kendra," and the many, many other women who have been "oppressed" by NFL players.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new...78?pmSlide=1.2426133
http://www.tmz.com/2016/12/28/...stic-violence-video/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T7AqYSxZi0
When NFL players "protest" (not make feel good commercial to burnish their PR credentials but protest) the brutality so many of their brethren have inflicted upon so many women, I will certainly stand up and take notice.
Until then, I guess I'll just link arms during the anthem, and cheer wildly for Ahmad Brooks when he tackles Joe Mixon, Tyreek Hill, etc.
Self deleted. I'm so tired of intellectual dishonesty if not outright self propaganda.
Nah, you're just not interested in anyone who does not adopt your doctrinaire narrative.
In 2014, before anyone in their right mind ever dreamed that Donnie Trump would become President of the United States, NFL players were already pushing an agenda.
Remember the Rams players coming out with the "hands up, don't shoot" gesture in honor of poor Michael Brown?
I do. https://www.si.com/nfl/2014/12...ers-hands-dont-shoot
Only problem was that "hands up don't shoot" never occurred, at least according to President Obama's Attorney General, and fellow African-American, Eric Holder.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/l...47-5711ae36cd8a.html
Was I wrong not to hold my hands up and yell don't shoot at every cop I saw because failing to do so was not unifying?
There are serious and long-standing issues involving the relationships between police departments and African-Americans and to pretend otherwise would be to deny reality. Would be great if people of good will could have serious dialogue to make things better and I have no doubt that a subset of NFL players are serious about addressing the issue and working towards bettering those relationships.
But if Aaron Rodgers expects me to show unity with "pig sock" "Castro t-shirt" wearing Kap and black-power saluters throughout the NFL in furtherance of unity, well I guess I'm not woke enough for him.
And yeah, the NFL has, and has had for some time, a serious issue with the way a significant minority of its players treat women. Don't recall ARod speaking out on that subject about his fellow travellers, do you?
If you're referring to your first post, you'd be correct.
Statement from the Green Bay Packers players
The NFL family is one of the most diverse communities in the world. Just look around! The eclectic group of players that you root for, the coaches you admire, the people you sit next to in the stands, those high-fiving on military bases, fans at the sports bar or during tailgate partiesâwe all come from different walks of life and have unique backgrounds and stories.
The game of football brings people together. As NFL players, we are a living testimony that individuals from different backgrounds and with different life experiences can work together toward a common goal.
This Thursday during the national anthem at Lambeau Field, Packers players, coaches and staff will join together with arms intertwinedâconnected like the threads on your favorite jersey. When we take this action, what you will see will be so much more than just a bunch of football players locking arms. The image you will see on September 28th will be one of unity. It will represent a coming together of players who want the same things that all of us doâfreedom, equality, tolerance, understanding, and justice for those who have been unjustly treated, discriminated against or otherwise treated unfairly. You will see the sons of police officers, kids who grew up in military families, people who have themselves experienced injustice and discrimination firsthand, and an array of others all linking together in a display of unity.
Those of us joining arms on Thursday will be different in so many ways, but one thing that binds us together is that we are all individuals who want to help make our society, our country and our world a better place. We believe that in diversity there can be UNI-versity. Intertwined, we represent the many people who helped build this country, and we are joining together to show that we are ready to continue to build.
Letâs work together to build a society that is more fair and just.
Join us this Thursday by locking arms with whoever youâre with, stranger or loved one, wherever you areâintertwined and includedâin this moment of unification.
- The Packers Players
Fandame, respectfully disagree regarding Amendment 1 and SCOTUS. A "conservative" majority in the SCOTUS is not like a "conservative" majority in congress. The court almost always sides with Amendment 1.
Big one coming up in this fall. Gay wedding cake. Kennedy (duh) will be the decider. LGBT guy, but super big on Amendment 1. Would not be surprised either way.
I like the civil discourse (so far)
Let's keep it up.
I kinda agree with both sides.
SteveLuke posted:Henry posted:SteveLuke posted:Hungry5 posted:This is a good question though for a large majority of Americans. Why aren't you speaking up for your countrymen?
OK I'll start, but in this case I'll start with my countrywomen.
I will speak up for Janay Roberts, Brandie Underwood, Amelia Molitor, Crystal Espinal, Kasandra Perkins, Nicole Holder, "Kendra," and the many, many other women who have been "oppressed" by NFL players.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new...78?pmSlide=1.2426133
http://www.tmz.com/2016/12/28/...stic-violence-video/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T7AqYSxZi0
When NFL players "protest" (not make feel good commercial to burnish their PR credentials but protest) the brutality so many of their brethren have inflicted upon so many women, I will certainly stand up and take notice.
Until then, I guess I'll just link arms during the anthem, and cheer wildly for Ahmad Brooks when he tackles Joe Mixon, Tyreek Hill, etc.
Self deleted. I'm so tired of intellectual dishonesty if not outright self propaganda.
Nah, you're just not interested in anyone who does not adopt your doctrinaire narrative.
In 2014, before anyone in their right mind ever dreamed that Donnie Trump would become President of the United States, NFL players were already pushing an agenda.
Remember the Rams players coming out with the "hands up, don't shoot" gesture in honor of poor Michael Brown?
I do. https://www.si.com/nfl/2014/12...ers-hands-dont-shoot
Only problem was that "hands up don't shoot" never occurred, at least according to President Obama's Attorney General, and fellow African-American, Eric Holder.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/l...47-5711ae36cd8a.html
Was I wrong not to hold my hands up and yell don't shoot at every cop I saw because failing to do so was not unifying?
There are serious and long-standing issues involving the relationships between police departments and African-Americans and to pretend otherwise would be to deny reality. Would be great if people of good will could have serious dialogue to make things better and I have no doubt that a subset of NFL players are serious about addressing the issue and working towards bettering those relationships.
But if Aaron Rodgers expects me to show unity with "pig sock" "Castro t-shirt" wearing Kap and black-power saluters throughout the NFL in furtherance of unity, well I guess I'm not woke enough for him.
And yeah, the NFL has, and has had for some time, a serious issue with the way a significant minority of its players treat women. Don't recall ARod speaking out on that subject about his fellow travellers, do you?
Okay, I'm in. You basically equated individual criminal actions of some football players with a protest over racial issues. I'll see your Michael Brown and raise you a Philando Castille.
Rodgers isn't asking for your unity. He's talking to reasonable people to have the discussion. It's almost laughable how you go after Rodgers for being rich and white yet I'll bet dollars to donuts you didn't say **** about Donnie and pussy grabbing sexual assault or the fact he is the epitome of a failed human.
So here's the takeaway you ****. You're tripping over so many logical fallacies it's absurd. You want to go to the next level? I'm game.
Blair Kiel posted:I like the civil discourse (so far)
Let's keep it up.
I kinda agree with both sides.
I tried!
Hear you on the cake case, Brak. While many people say "Just go someplace else," I think about those folks who live in communities who have no other place to go. It would be a nightmare if this became law as I think about, say, the Muslim owner of a store refusing to sell goods to Lutherans or a Catholic doctor refusing to see a Protestant patient. Seems far-fetched, but...
And now, back to the topic...
SteveLuke was a big fan of Ali too.
...good food for thought Fandame.
Nice statement by the Packers players! I like the idea to have everyone link arms in the name of building a better society. Hope it catches on.
Fandame posted:Hear you on the cake case, Brak. While many people say "Just go someplace else," I think about those folks who live in communities who have no other place to go. It would be a nightmare if this became law as I think about, say, the Muslim owner of a store refusing to sell goods to Lutherans or a Catholic doctor refusing to see a Protestant patient. Seems far-fetched, but...
And now, back to the topic...
Damn, I was for the owner on this, but you make a good point.
Brak posted:Fandame, respectfully disagree regarding Amendment 1 and SCOTUS. A "conservative" majority in the SCOTUS is not like a "conservative" majority in congress. The court almost always sides with Amendment 1.
Big one coming up in this fall. Gay wedding cake. Kennedy (duh) will be the decider. LGBT guy, but super big on Amendment 1. Would not be surprised either way.
The bigger case will be the redistricting one. They need to get rid of the deep red and deep blue house districts or else nothing will change because there will be fewer and fewer representatives who need to compromisee
"I think it was Marty's [Martellus Bennett's] idea," said Kendricks, who said he sat during the anthem to bring awareness to people in Puerto Rico affected by Hurricane Maria. "
What a ****. That guy and his bull**** while Trump is doing the serious work of calling NFL players SOBs. All I can read in that statement is pig socks and Castro. What are these guys thinking.
You know, I think when ALL men disavow people like Milo Yiannopoulos, Mike Cernovich and Donald Trump who think rape, assault and pedophilia are okay that all men are worthless POS.
Rape and pedophilia vs. kneeling for a ****ing song.
Take your symbolism and jam it up your ass, everyone of you. The symbolism ISN'T THE GOD DAMN IDEA. You let the idea rot and wither as long as you can put a pretty flag over the corpse. Seriously, go **** yourselves.
Henry posted:Okay, I'm in. You basically equated individual criminal actions of some football players with a protest over racial issues. I'll see your Michael Brown and raise you a Philando Castille.
Rodgers isn't asking for your unity. He's talking to reasonable people. It's almost laughable how you go after Rodgers for being rich and white yet I'll bet dollars to donuts you didn't say **** about Donnie and pussy grabbing sexual assault or the fact he is the epitome of a failed human.
So here's the takeaway you ****. You're tripping over so many logical fallacies it's absurd. You want to go to the next level? I'm game.
For me, it is both a joke and a travesty that a privileged, coarse, anti-intellectual SOB (he likes that term) like Trump was elected President. Does that help you?
Two of the finest politicians I ever had the privilege of working for Bill Proxmire and Clem Zablocki (look em up son) are no doubt turning over in their graves over his becoming President.
But the players you so admire for their activism (and ignore when it comes to their own issues of violent oppression) were agitating well before Donnie got elected so the issue cannot solely be President Trump.
And yes, I am saying the same NFL players protesting "racial issues" are mighty silent when it comes to their NFL peers treatment of women, including Kap who had no shortage of opportunity to protest the conduct of Ray McDonald, Tramaine Brock, and oh yeah our very own Ahmad Brooks.
Esox posted:Fandame posted:Hear you on the cake case, Brak. While many people say "Just go someplace else," I think about those folks who live in communities who have no other place to go. It would be a nightmare if this became law as I think about, say, the Muslim owner of a store refusing to sell goods to Lutherans or a Catholic doctor refusing to see a Protestant patient. Seems far-fetched, but...
And now, back to the topic...
Damn, I was for the owner on this, but you make a good point.
That's the whole point of freedom of religion. It isn't there to reinforce your faith, it's there to make sure you can still practice it. "Religious rights", there's another one you can all cram with walnuts.
Henry posted:SteveLuke was a big fan of Ali too.
What would you prefer for Thursday the black power salute, the Castro t-shirt (or is Che who is back in vogue now), or the pig socks?
We can always go "hands up don't shoot" when the Rams come to town to remember that St. Louis once had a team.
Damn you ,Steve if you don't have a point.
We all want to be the heroes of our own stories...it's kinda easy to jump in with the crowd...but also easy to be quiet with the rest of the crowd.
Actually the whole idea of NFl players standing for the anthem started because they were receiving money from the government.
Fandame posted:Hear you on the cake case, Brak. While many people say "Just go someplace else," I think about those folks who live in communities who have no other place to go. It would be a nightmare if this became law as I think about, say, the Muslim owner of a store refusing to sell goods to Lutherans or a Catholic doctor refusing to see a Protestant patient. Seems far-fetched, but...
And now, back to the topic...
Understand the concerns. I'm not sure the examples you give are rights, though (hoo boy, but the healthcare!).
I would consider it more illegal, and more immoral, to compel someone to do/make/sell something to/for anyone that they would otherwise chose not to. That is almost the definition of a police / Govco state. Rights and choices are not the same thing. I don't have a right to go to your restaurant and expect a smoke/drink free environment. But I do have a choice of whether or not to go there.
Anyway, I'm not getting too worked up either way. Love this one from back in the day, and it's kind of relevant to this thread!
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624, 87 L. Ed. 1628, 63 S. Ct. 1178 (1943): In 1940, the West Virginia Board of Education issued regulations requiring every schoolchild to participate daily in a salute to the flag of the United States. The Barnette children, all members of the Jehovah's Witnesses, refused to participate in the flag salute, consistent with the tenets of their religious beliefs, and were expelled from school. The Supreme Court struck down the regulation on the grounds that the First Amendment barred any rule compelling an individual to salute the flag or participate in the Pledge of Allegiance. In strong language, the Court affirmed the right to dissent: "But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order. If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us."
SteveLuke posted:Henry posted:Okay, I'm in. You basically equated individual criminal actions of some football players with a protest over racial issues. I'll see your Michael Brown and raise you a Philando Castille.
Rodgers isn't asking for your unity. He's talking to reasonable people. It's almost laughable how you go after Rodgers for being rich and white yet I'll bet dollars to donuts you didn't say **** about Donnie and pussy grabbing sexual assault or the fact he is the epitome of a failed human.
So here's the takeaway you ****. You're tripping over so many logical fallacies it's absurd. You want to go to the next level? I'm game.
For me, it is both a joke and a travesty that a privileged, coarse, anti-intellectual SOB (he likes that term) like Trump was elected President. Does that help you?
Two of the finest politicians I ever had the privilege of working for Bill Proxmire and Clem Zablocki (look em up son) are no doubt turning over in their graves over his becoming President.
But the players you so admire for their activism (and ignore when it comes to their own issues of violent oppression) were agitating well before Donnie got elected so the issue cannot solely be President Trump.
And yes, I am saying the same NFL players protesting "racial issues" are mighty silent when it comes to their NFL peers treatment of women, including Kap who had no shortage of opportunity to protest the conduct of Ray McDonald, Tramaine Brock, and oh yeah our very own Ahmad Brooks.
Hey Pops, I know all about them. I don't have heroes. Heroes are for suckers. I admire ideas. I don't vote or follow politicians, I vote and follow ideas. People who put out the message of DISCUSSING IDEAS should be given the tip of the cap.
So I'm sure, following in the footsteps of Proxmire and Zablocki, you are openly vocal about the betrayal of all Republicans to their core beliefs? Why the **** don't I see you out there getting up in every Republicans grill and denouncing the entire lot? Do you think there is a single ethical Republican in Wisconsin right now? Is that your belief? WHY THE **** ARE YOU HERE INSTEAD OF DENOUNCING THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD CONSIDER RONALD REAGAN A "RINO" OR LIBERAL?
GO!
Oh BTW, Wisconsin was one of 21 states with election systems hacking/hack attempts. Want to know what Scottie and your ethical Republicans had to say?