I was just about to, but now I won't.
Clay just looked done last night. Can't think of any other way to say it. Like the "try" was all there but his body wasn't having any of it. He's not an option in the middle either after watching last night. If GB can get 5-7 sacks out of him as a situational rush guy that's probably the best we can hope for.
The late hit like he delivered last night is typical for a player who has lost a step and hasn't created opportunities for himself to make legal plays. Kind of like the OL who is on his last legs and gets called for holding 5 times in a game. Some guys cheat when they're beat.
There is a very fine athletic line in professional sports. A dominant player can lose a half-step and be just another guy. I’m sure CM will have a game or two where he puts up some good numbers, but his days of being a force on defense at OLB are over I think.
At this point, he appears to be just a guy... with a big ****ing salary.
He hasn't been a force for years now. He has made occasional splash plays that everyone remembers but there has been a lot of dead zones and injuries between them. Still been valuable but last night looked like another step down.
I'm giving Clay the month of September to get up to speed. Let's see what happens.
Agree he hasn't been a force for a while now. Last night was still different. It was tough to watch. Probably the last year we see him on the roster.
He just looked worn out by the end of the game. He can still stack an OT/TE, but the grind of playing OLB slowed him down to a crawl by the 4th. They rotated Gilbert in heavily, they need more quality depth though.
Pakrz posted:There is a very fine athletic line in professional sports. A dominant player can lose a half-step and be just another guy. I’m sure CM will have a game or two where he puts up some good numbers, but his days of being a force on defense at OLB are over I think.
At this point, he appears to be just a guy... with a big ****ing salary.
Clay has not reached double digit sacks since 2014. He has not reached double digit sacks playing outside LB since 2012. He has had a lot of injuries and is in his thirties now.
There is no way Clay can play sixty of seventy snaps like he did last night and be productive.
Pakrz posted:Jimmy Graham was also invisible last night. Definitely not the performance I was expecting.
On the Adams TD, the defenders were focused on Graham, allowing Adams to be open and make his jukes to score.
SteveLuke posted:Pakrz posted:There is a very fine athletic line in professional sports. A dominant player can lose a half-step and be just another guy. I’m sure CM will have a game or two where he puts up some good numbers, but his days of being a force on defense at OLB are over I think.
At this point, he appears to be just a guy... with a big ****ing salary.
Clay has not reached double digit sacks since 2014. He has not reached double digit sacks playing outside LB since 2012. He has had a lot of injuries and is in his thirties now.
There is no way Clay can play sixty of seventy snaps like he did last night and be productive.
Yes, his snaps need to be reduced, but so we can see more of Fackwell?
Henry posted:Grave Digger posted:I agree on the first part, the second part not so much. Personally, I don't think the offense was every intended to function like AR has run it the last few years, I think it's supposed to be like it was last night in the 2nd half. I think Rodgers gets the freedom to hold the ball and read the D as he see fits, but he has lots of easy underneath options. I'm not blaming him, but I don't think the scheme is the culprit of some of the slow starts. What IS MM's fault is the lack of creativity with the called runs, they didn't press the edges hardly at all and seemed to run right at their biggest weakness.
Simply this, it's pretty hard to believe that Rodgers is entirely hijacking this offense. He's not calling the personnel on the field. Kizer comes in, gets a couple of nice quick out passes and then the whole thing ****s the bed. He's running McVince's playbook right? Of course, Kizer isn't Rodgers (hence we both agree they need a vet) but it also wasn't dink and dunk that won the game. It loosened things up but again it was Rodgers with some crazy throws and Cobb with some hops. I think the Allison TD and the Cobb TD are a good argument for the dichotomy of the offense. So am I going to rip McVince on the playbook? Not entirely, but I absolutely will rip him on constant horse**** preparation, which shows that **** management of his.
I don't know, Henry. It sounds like you want the whole passing game to be long passes that go for TDs and nothing less. I blame MM for the slow start, and yes, he needs either to get his QB room into shape or get a vet. But, look at the key plays:
On Kizer's first trip into the red zone, he decides to run up and right into Mack/Bulaga as Mack was just starting to engage Bulaga. If Kizer steps backward and then cuts to the sideline instead of running up and right, he most likely throws it into the sideline and there's no strip by Mack. Kizer just never realized where Mack was.
You can't blame MM for calling a screen, having it blown up by a rusher from the left, and then watching as your QB throws the ball directly to Mack who's in the middle of the screen. If you didn't have Mack standing there, it goes for decent distance as they had a good blocking line set. It was on Kizer to see Mack, throw the ball away or just hold it and take the sack.
A crazy throw by AR was the one to GMo. Dropped in on a dime. But look how much time AR has. All those shorter throws finally calmed their rush and helped his blockers. However, the guy in Minnesota had a similar TD toss that had to be on a dime. It wasn't as long as AR's, but good QBs make that toss. (No YAC)
The toss to Adams for a good gain was floated out there. A mid-distance pass that was almost too underthrown and hit the DB in the head. Adams made chicken salad out of it with his running. And Williams was perfect in picking up the blitz. (YAC)
The Adams TD was just a short, simple toss to the flat after AR stepped up in the pocket, which broke right down the middle and split in two. Adams made the most of it with his jukes and running. (YAC)
I don't think Rodgers' throw to Cobb was all that crazy. Cobb was right in front of him and the Bear guy just blew it and left Cobb a wide-open field for the TD. Notice on the play design that guys weren't just running straight down the field; there are two WRs who are crossing, a back (Monty) leaks out to the right and eventually helps block for Cobb, and one WR is stopped on the left sideline just ahead of the first-down stick. Cobb comes across and then stops and cuts back. If anything, I would have liked to see a WR further down the field to help clean out the underneath where Cobb was working. (YAC)
When you look at these key plays, I see two huge Kizer errors, a great throw by AR, and a lot of YAC. And that's where I think AR and GB were always most successful: shorter to mid passes for YAC, then taking a deep shot for quick-strike success. IMHO...
Fackrell got four snaps yesterday. Pretty clear what the organization thinks of him as an option.
McCarthy said he has a lot of regrets about calling the screen pass with Kizer late in the half. In hindsight, he would have run the ball "and got out of there." McCarthy said "that's the call that kept me up last night." #Packers
— Michael Cohen (@Michael_Cohen13) September 10, 2018
Give MM credit for acknowledging a mistake- it doesn't happen often.
Fandame posted:Henry posted:Grave Digger posted:I agree on the first part, the second part not so much. Personally, I don't think the offense was every intended to function like AR has run it the last few years, I think it's supposed to be like it was last night in the 2nd half. I think Rodgers gets the freedom to hold the ball and read the D as he see fits, but he has lots of easy underneath options. I'm not blaming him, but I don't think the scheme is the culprit of some of the slow starts. What IS MM's fault is the lack of creativity with the called runs, they didn't press the edges hardly at all and seemed to run right at their biggest weakness.
Simply this, it's pretty hard to believe that Rodgers is entirely hijacking this offense. He's not calling the personnel on the field. Kizer comes in, gets a couple of nice quick out passes and then the whole thing ****s the bed. He's running McVince's playbook right? Of course, Kizer isn't Rodgers (hence we both agree they need a vet) but it also wasn't dink and dunk that won the game. It loosened things up but again it was Rodgers with some crazy throws and Cobb with some hops. I think the Allison TD and the Cobb TD are a good argument for the dichotomy of the offense. So am I going to rip McVince on the playbook? Not entirely, but I absolutely will rip him on constant horse**** preparation, which shows that **** management of his.
I don't know, Henry. It sounds like you want the whole passing game to be long passes that go for TDs and nothing less. I blame MM for the slow start, and yes, he needs either to get his QB room into shape or get a vet. But, look at the key plays:
On Kizer's first trip into the red zone, he decides to run up and right into Mack/Bulaga as Mack was just starting to engage Bulaga. If Kizer steps backward and then cuts to the sideline instead of running up and right, he most likely throws it into the sideline and there's no strip by Mack. Kizer just never realized where Mack was.
You can't blame MM for calling a screen, having it blown up by a rusher from the left, and then watching as your QB throws the ball directly to Mack who's in the middle of the screen. If you didn't have Mack standing there, it goes for decent distance as they had a good blocking line set. It was on Kizer to see Mack, throw the ball away or just hold it and take the sack.
A crazy throw by AR was the one to GMo. Dropped in on a dime. But look how much time AR has. All those shorter throws finally calmed their rush and helped his blockers. However, the guy in Minnesota had a similar TD toss that had to be on a dime. It wasn't as long as AR's, but good QBs make that toss. (No YAC)
The toss to Adams for a good gain was floated out there. A mid-distance pass that was almost too underthrown and hit the DB in the head. Adams made chicken salad out of it with his running. And Williams was perfect in picking up the blitz. (YAC)
The Adams TD was just a short, simple toss to the flat after AR stepped up in the pocket, which broke right down the middle and split in two. Adams made the most of it with his jukes and running. (YAC)
I don't think Rodgers' throw to Cobb was all that crazy. Cobb was right in front of him and the Bear guy just blew it and left Cobb a wide-open field for the TD. Notice on the play design that guys weren't just running straight down the field; there are two WRs who are crossing, a back (Monty) leaks out to the right and eventually helps block for Cobb, and one WR is stopped on the left sideline just ahead of the first-down stick. Cobb comes across and then stops and cuts back. If anything, I would have liked to see a WR further down the field to help clean out the underneath where Cobb was working. (YAC)
When you look at these key plays, I see two huge Kizer errors, a great throw by AR, and a lot of YAC. And that's where I think AR and GB were always most successful: shorter to mid passes for YAC, then taking a deep shot for quick-strike success. IMHO...
Nope, I want people to constantly quit absolving McVince. He has a **** ton to answer for.
I actually said this a while back that people would be ready to heap blame on Rodgers before McVince and I was right. McVince does absolutely no wrong.
Good analysis, and we do need to give a lot of props to Montgomery for making that TD happen by blocking two Bears to let Cobb get into the end zone.
Brainwashed Boris posted:I'm giving Clay the month of September to get up to speed. Let's see what happens.
He’ll probably pull a hammy.
Grave Digger posted:Linsley was good when he was flanked by 2 pro bowl Guards, he's struggled since they both left.
Just watched a bunch of plays from last night again. I'm a little shocked at how he got pushed around when he was engaged. And a lot of time he wasn't engaged. Leaves a double team to block nobody.
No Henry, I'm not absolving him. For example, the start to the game last night was the worst 15 scripted plays I think I've seen out of him in all the years in GB. There was no flow and it seemed like no plan. It was ugly. On the same hand, I wondered about the handoffs on the very last series; if there had been a fumble, MM might not even be coach today. But the handoffs burned a little more clock than just kneel-downs so at the end it was only 4 seconds or something for the fourth-down play.
One of the worst things I've seen out of MM lately is his propensity for letting his teams start slow. He needs to be more aggressive at the start. And yes, maybe the screen pass was a terrible call, but the execution was even worse. If Kizer carries it out and it even gains 10 yards, today everyone is happy they saw a screen. Danged if you do, danged if you don't.
I don't think Rodgers is hijacking the entire offense all the time, but I do think he changes things often enough and doesn't follow the timing/short patterns as well as he could. Last night showed what happens when he stays in there, stays patient, and takes what's given. Then he got his deep shot and it was successful. Maybe he doesn't want to be seen as a "game manager" or he wants the challenge of the hard throws but any way you look at it, THE TEAM is best when he follows the plan.
I just think that most of the time, players being human, make mistakes. Wasn't it Lombardi who said it didn't matter if they knew what was coming as long as you did your job properly? (and MM could find someone to do the job more properly)
Is MM perfect? Far from it. But I'm not ready to toss him on the slag heap just yet.
michiganjoe posted:McCarthy said he has a lot of regrets about calling the screen pass with Kizer late in the half. In hindsight, he would have run the ball "and got out of there." McCarthy said "that's the call that kept me up last night." #Packers
— Michael Cohen (@Michael_Cohen13) September 10, 2018Give MM credit for acknowledging a mistake- it doesn't happen often.
Has any HC had more trouble dialing up a well designed screen play more than MM? That play was instantly off the rails when Linsley turned the NT loose into Kizers lap.
I admire MM for calling himself out. But teams have run screen plays since the beginning of football because it's the safest high percentage / low risk pass play you can run to see if maybe you can squeeze out a decent gain and go from there. The problem wasn't calling the play. The problem was the execution of the play. And that really is the most important part of the play. The execution.
Maybe he worked at a car rental place before the toll booth.
I remember a time not that long ago when everyone was screen pass crazy, always calling for more screens. We had been running them regularly just before then until D's started preparing better for them. Then we couldn't run them anymore. I don't recall if that was under MM. Maybe back in the Ryan Grant days?
TT has been criticized a fair amount for the 2015 and 2016 drafts and rightfully so. Somehow MM skates by or deflects a lot of it. I think he’s really fortunate that Pettine is on the staff as is Joe Philbin because they are very good assistants. But this is his year to show what he’s got. Not sure how he developed the game plan for last nights game but it was brutal. He’s got to prepare them better than that.
CHI's D was just winning more 1 on 1's than he probably expected. The plays weren't necessarily the problem but the execution was. He didn't do much to adjust before Kizer came in. His first drive was shockingly good until the handoff to Mack.
Fandame posted:No Henry, I'm not absolving him. For example, the start to the game last night was the worst 15 scripted plays I think I've seen out of him in all the years in GB. There was no flow and it seemed like no plan. It was ugly. On the same hand, I wondered about the handoffs on the very last series; if there had been a fumble, MM might not even be coach today. But the handoffs burned a little more clock than just kneel-downs so at the end it was only 4 seconds or something for the fourth-down play.
One of the worst things I've seen out of MM lately is his propensity for letting his teams start slow. He needs to be more aggressive at the start. And yes, maybe the screen pass was a terrible call, but the execution was even worse. If Kizer carries it out and it even gains 10 yards, today everyone is happy they saw a screen. Danged if you do, danged if you don't.
I don't think Rodgers is hijacking the entire offense all the time, but I do think he changes things often enough and doesn't follow the timing/short patterns as well as he could. Last night showed what happens when he stays in there, stays patient, and takes what's given. Then he got his deep shot and it was successful. Maybe he doesn't want to be seen as a "game manager" or he wants the challenge of the hard throws but any way you look at it, THE TEAM is best when he follows the plan.
I just think that most of the time, players being human, make mistakes. Wasn't it Lombardi who said it didn't matter if they knew what was coming as long as you did your job properly? (and MM could find someone to do the job more properly)
Is MM perfect? Far from it. But I'm not ready to toss him on the slag heap just yet.
Tom Brady once told an NFL coach, if Aaron Rodgers had Patriots' offensive scheme & institutional knowledge on opposing defenses, "He'd throw for 7,000 yards every year. He's so much more talented than me."
— Ian O'Connor (@Ian_OConnor) September 10, 2018
Henry posted:Or even a direct potshot at Randall. Something tells me Randall is a bigger asshole than we know.
Yes, he was:
& institutional knowledge on opposing defenses,
You mean the video of the opponents' calls?
Brak posted:Grave Digger posted:Linsley was good when he was flanked by 2 pro bowl Guards, he's struggled since they both left.
Just watched a bunch of plays from last night again. I'm a little shocked at how he got pushed around when he was engaged. And a lot of time he wasn't engaged. Leaves a double team to block nobody.
Back when we had both he & Tretter, Linsley was better when he had a NT over him because he was stronger and anchored well. However, he is not as athletic & is not as good when he has to move, which was Tretter's strength
Henry posted:Fandame posted:No Henry, I'm not absolving him. For example, the start to the game last night was the worst 15 scripted plays I think I've seen out of him in all the years in GB. There was no flow and it seemed like no plan. It was ugly. On the same hand, I wondered about the handoffs on the very last series; if there had been a fumble, MM might not even be coach today. But the handoffs burned a little more clock than just kneel-downs so at the end it was only 4 seconds or something for the fourth-down play.
One of the worst things I've seen out of MM lately is his propensity for letting his teams start slow. He needs to be more aggressive at the start. And yes, maybe the screen pass was a terrible call, but the execution was even worse. If Kizer carries it out and it even gains 10 yards, today everyone is happy they saw a screen. Danged if you do, danged if you don't.
I don't think Rodgers is hijacking the entire offense all the time, but I do think he changes things often enough and doesn't follow the timing/short patterns as well as he could. Last night showed what happens when he stays in there, stays patient, and takes what's given. Then he got his deep shot and it was successful. Maybe he doesn't want to be seen as a "game manager" or he wants the challenge of the hard throws but any way you look at it, THE TEAM is best when he follows the plan.
I just think that most of the time, players being human, make mistakes. Wasn't it Lombardi who said it didn't matter if they knew what was coming as long as you did your job properly? (and MM could find someone to do the job more properly)
Is MM perfect? Far from it. But I'm not ready to toss him on the slag heap just yet.
Tom Brady once told an NFL coach, if Aaron Rodgers had Patriots' offensive scheme & institutional knowledge on opposing defenses, "He'd throw for 7,000 yards every year. He's so much more talented than me."
— Ian O'Connor (@Ian_OConnor) September 10, 2018
I think we have our next head coaching candidate!
Linsley looked shaky in his limited preseason snaps. He looked shaky last night. It's a concern.
Henry posted:Fandame posted:No Henry, I'm not absolving him. For example, the start to the game last night was the worst 15 scripted plays I think I've seen out of him in all the years in GB. There was no flow and it seemed like no plan. It was ugly. On the same hand, I wondered about the handoffs on the very last series; if there had been a fumble, MM might not even be coach today. But the handoffs burned a little more clock than just kneel-downs so at the end it was only 4 seconds or something for the fourth-down play.
One of the worst things I've seen out of MM lately is his propensity for letting his teams start slow. He needs to be more aggressive at the start. And yes, maybe the screen pass was a terrible call, but the execution was even worse. If Kizer carries it out and it even gains 10 yards, today everyone is happy they saw a screen. Danged if you do, danged if you don't.
I don't think Rodgers is hijacking the entire offense all the time, but I do think he changes things often enough and doesn't follow the timing/short patterns as well as he could. Last night showed what happens when he stays in there, stays patient, and takes what's given. Then he got his deep shot and it was successful. Maybe he doesn't want to be seen as a "game manager" or he wants the challenge of the hard throws but any way you look at it, THE TEAM is best when he follows the plan.
I just think that most of the time, players being human, make mistakes. Wasn't it Lombardi who said it didn't matter if they knew what was coming as long as you did your job properly? (and MM could find someone to do the job more properly)
Is MM perfect? Far from it. But I'm not ready to toss him on the slag heap just yet.
Tom Brady once told an NFL coach, if Aaron Rodgers had Patriots' offensive scheme & institutional knowledge on opposing defenses, "He'd throw for 7,000 yards every year. He's so much more talented than me."
— Ian O'Connor (@Ian_OConnor) September 10, 2018
Yep, coaches make a big difference. Could make that same statement about almost any guy. "If Smith had a better post..." "If Boyle had a better coach..."
Take Arod's talent and give him a different guy who sees things differently, maybe he does a lot better.
I think Clay has been judged overly harshly the last few years.
His penalty was about the stupidest ****ing thing I have ever seen a player do.
Another Positive. Packers currently hold the #1 pick in the 2019 draft. Saints 0-1
Saints game was a big stunner
gonna be a loooooooong time before I forget this play
ChilliJon posted:Linsley looked shaky in his limited preseason snaps. He looked shaky last night. It's a concern.
When he came out he looked pretty stout for a center. A lot of Oline players when they come to GB are drafted tackles who eventually get moved inside. Linsley is a pure center and was one when drafted. What he did not have in quicks was made up in his ability to drop anchor. He looked tougher than tretter and was a good choice for center. The players next to him are not exactly pro bowl players and I think it hurts his play. Also, many of today’s nose tackles are monsters. So his advantage as anchor has diminished. If the guards next to him can up their play then I hope he does better over the course of the season. Of course Donald might simply run over him, like he does to most every center in the league. But that game is down the road. We have to play who we got and hope that Campen coaches them up.
skully posted:Saints game was a big stunner
gonna be a loooooooong time before I forget this play
That’s my new favorite photo. Their high priced difference maker falling while Cobb scores!
Fandame posted:Henry posted:Fandame posted:No Henry, I'm not absolving him. For example, the start to the game last night was the worst 15 scripted plays I think I've seen out of him in all the years in GB. There was no flow and it seemed like no plan. It was ugly. On the same hand, I wondered about the handoffs on the very last series; if there had been a fumble, MM might not even be coach today. But the handoffs burned a little more clock than just kneel-downs so at the end it was only 4 seconds or something for the fourth-down play.
One of the worst things I've seen out of MM lately is his propensity for letting his teams start slow. He needs to be more aggressive at the start. And yes, maybe the screen pass was a terrible call, but the execution was even worse. If Kizer carries it out and it even gains 10 yards, today everyone is happy they saw a screen. Danged if you do, danged if you don't.
I don't think Rodgers is hijacking the entire offense all the time, but I do think he changes things often enough and doesn't follow the timing/short patterns as well as he could. Last night showed what happens when he stays in there, stays patient, and takes what's given. Then he got his deep shot and it was successful. Maybe he doesn't want to be seen as a "game manager" or he wants the challenge of the hard throws but any way you look at it, THE TEAM is best when he follows the plan.
I just think that most of the time, players being human, make mistakes. Wasn't it Lombardi who said it didn't matter if they knew what was coming as long as you did your job properly? (and MM could find someone to do the job more properly)
Is MM perfect? Far from it. But I'm not ready to toss him on the slag heap just yet.
Tom Brady once told an NFL coach, if Aaron Rodgers had Patriots' offensive scheme & institutional knowledge on opposing defenses, "He'd throw for 7,000 yards every year. He's so much more talented than me."
— Ian O'Connor (@Ian_OConnor) September 10, 2018Yep, coaches make a big difference. Could make that same statement about almost any guy. "If Smith had a better post..." "If Boyle had a better coach..."
Take Arod's talent and give him a different guy who sees things differently, maybe he does a lot better.
I think you're comparing apples to Buicks.
Some astute poster previously pointed out that Mack started slowing down while in pursuit. And all of the sudden had a chance when Cobb cut left
He's an awesome player. Great addition to that team.
But you can't ever let up. Had he been going full out, that play may have ended up very differently.