Pettine is GONE, who would be your choice?

@PackLandVA posted:

Some really great coordinators turn out to be really shitty head coaches. But they can still be great coordinators. Matt Patricia might/should be available. Any interest there as a possible Pettine replacement?

Honestly, I think every DC that has come out of NE was just a guy that got credit for the brilliance of Bill Belichick. They all sucked as head coaches but didn't exactly light it up as DC's outside of New England either. I think Patricia would be the same as the rest.

On that final series against the Jags you saw the Packers defensive talant (thx x4) on full display.

In future key situations Pettine has Z, Preston, Gary & KC rushing with Jaire, Savage & King & Amos as DB's.

You also have Kirksey who isn't bad

There's plenty of talent there to work with. Pettine has zero excuses If all the players I listed are on the field & healthy.

@Boris posted:

On that final series against the Jags you saw the Packers defensive talant (thx x4) on full display.

In future key situations Pettine has Z, Preston, Gary & KC rushing with Jaire, Savage & King & Amos as DB's.

You also have Kirksey who isn't bad

There's plenty of talent there to work with. Pettine has zero excuses If all the players I listed are on the field & healthy.

Theory already flawed (see bold).

I think LaFluer is already making his short list of guys to call in February.

Either Keke and Adams are both somehow far worse than lowly Lowry or Pettine is seriously misjudging/mismanaging his DL "talent," because (as has been the case when it comes to snaps most of the season) those two combined for just 28 snaps compared to Lowry's 39 in yesterday's game against the Jags.

And, in those 39 snaps, Lowry (52.8 PFF season score) contributed ZERO unassisted tackles and ZERO assisted tackles. (M. Adams had an unassisted tackle).

What is the possible reason for continuing to give Lowry so many snaps despite an almost complete lack of production?

Surely Dean is going to be a cap casualty in <4 months and he is nothing more than a warm body at this point.

Why play a proven stiff when he won't be here next season anyway?

Are Keke and M. Adams really that useless?

I'm giving Lancaster (68.2 PFF score) a pass because even though he offers nothing when it comes to rushing the passer he at least does not get consistently washed out in the running game the way Lowry does -- Lancaster had 2 assisted tackles in far fewer snaps yesterday.

"those two combined for just 28 snaps compared to Lowry's 39 in yesterday's game against the Jags."

That's criminal.   I'm over Pettine.  Adams has been playing really well the last couple weeks.

Interested to see Kris Richard get a look as a DC candidate if Pettine were sent packing. I would we could keep a lot of the staff in place like Gray, Olivadotti, and Mike Smith. Kind of so-so on Montgomery, but I do recognize he developed KC and doesn’t have much other talent to work with. A guy like Richard isn’t going to have a ground breaking scheme, but he brings tons energy and his defenses always seem to play hard.  

@Grave Digger posted:

Interested to see Kris Richard... he brings tons energy and his defenses always seem to play hard.  

I'm done watching the Packers defense play patty cake for 59.5 minutes then make a play to close out the game.

The current defensive players are not being put in The best position to succeed.

As @BrainDed pointed out Pettine is also not properly using the players he has.

Maybe after the Colts destroy the Packers we'll have a clearer picture.

Adams instead of Lowry. Gary instead of Lancaster.

Anyone ever notice that GB is shockingly good at closing out games? It’s because they 1) have the lead and 2) they attack instead of bend. Pettine needs to let them play like that final Jags drive where the front 4 just go. Let our guys eat! I'm not saying blitz every play or let guys just rush wildly, but each of these guys has a particular strength and it seems like Pettine is too in his head about making them do very specific things. Part of what doomed Dom Capers (oh god what am I doing) is that he couldn't stop forcing bad fit players into the scheme he wanted instead of molding scheme around who he had...scheme that worked when he had the right talent but didn't work with misfit talent.

@FLPACKER posted:

Watching Bears right now .... they have SIGNIFICANTLY more defensive talent than we do.

They lost.

@Grave Digger posted:

Anyone ever notice that GB is shockingly good at closing out games? It’s because they 1) have the lead and 2) they attack instead of bend. Pettine needs to let them play like that final Jags drive where the front 4 just go. Let our guys eat! I'm not saying blitz every play or let guys just rush wildly, but each of these guys has a particular strength and it seems like Pettine is too in his head about making them do very specific things. Part of what doomed Dom Capers (oh god what am I doing) is that he couldn't stop forcing bad fit players into the scheme he wanted instead of molding scheme around who he had...scheme that worked when he had the right talent but didn't work with misfit talent.

Digger, totally agree.  I think what they may be lacking just go out and get after it and don't try to over think things.  Maybe he is trying to hard to out scheme the OCs on the other team and perhaps he just needs to let them go. 

Let slip the Dogs of War!

LET THEM EAT! But seriously I do think we're being a little pedantic with the Jags game in particular, it wasn't a "pretty" effort from the team, but they did only allow 13 points. Against a bad offense they held them <14 points, that's not a bad effort by any means, especially since the only TD was on a short field after a turnover. Back to back weeks against undermanned offenses they've allowed 30 total points, I'll take that honestly. If they were playing with some belly fire though and Pettine was letting the dogs out, I think it's probably 10 total points in back to back weeks...

For 51 minutes, Mike Pettine made the Jags offense look good by playing soft zone against a rookie QB.

Over the Jags final 2 drives, Pettine adjusted to bump-n-run coverage, & here are the results:

- 4 short completions
- 6 incompletions
- 2 sacks
- ZERO points

LEARN FROM THIS

— Eli Berkovits (@BookOfEli_NFL) November 16, 2020

ABM better learn from it or unemployment is in his future...

@norm posted:

They lost.

I would say the CHI D didn't lose that game.  They were the only reason that game was close.

CHI seems to be GB's bad twin.  Save for a few years over the last...25, successful/dominant on one side of the ball and always wondering the desert on the other.  No matter what efforts are made to balance out.

Looked at all our players PFF scores and they reaffirmed much of what has been shared here (so they must be right)

We are weak in the middle of the field; Lowry, Kirksey, Martin, Barnes, & Savage's scores all stink. Perhaps Rex Ryan was correct when he said "I don't know who is coaching the ILBers, but Pettine better start coaching them himself, they were awful"

As far as scheme, I'd like to see more stunting, slants, run blitzes, etc. to get defenders in the backfield, that is what causes turnovers. Watching our defense at times is liking watching a slow death (Vikes game). We really are not far off where wee were last year ; 10th in total defense right now compared to 9th last year, although we are 15th in defensive scoring vs. 9th last year. Must get better if we are to make a run in the playoffs.

Wish that ABM showed half the imaginative playcalling that MLF shows.

@FLPACKER posted:

Looked at all our players PFF scores and they reaffirmed much of what has been shared here (so they must be right)

We are weak in the middle of the field; Lowry, Kirksey, Martin, Barnes, & Savage's scores all stink. Perhaps Rex Ryan was correct when he said "I don't know who is coaching the ILBers, but Pettine better start coaching them himself, they were awful"

As far as scheme, I'd like to see more stunting, slants, run blitzes, etc. to get defenders in the backfield, that is what causes turnovers. Watching our defense at times is liking watching a slow death (Vikes game). We really are not far off where wee were last year ; 10th in total defense right now compared to 9th last year, although we are 15th in defensive scoring vs. 9th last year. Must get better if we are to make a run in the playoffs.

They really need to get better at producing big plays on defense and on special teams.

Right now, they have forced 10 turnovers in 9 games. Pettine's scheme is based on forcing the other team to execute long drives and hope you can take advantage of a mistake or get a big sack. 20 sacks in 9 games is average, but 40% of that is Z. Smith.

On special teams, they've returned 7 punts for 39 yards. It's like they almost don't even try to do anything in that area. 

ST definitely showing cracks the last several games.

Christ on a cracker, mind you, this is the same veteran who said "I like this defense!" post-game yesterday

ILB Christian Kirkey has been targeted 24 times this season, and he's given up 22 completions. That's over 90%. For the sake of comparison, Blake Martinez, who's hardly known for his coverage skills, allowed completions on 83% of targeted throws last season.

— Michael Rodney (@PackersNotes) November 23, 2020

Yeah I'd like this defense too if I was on the field & getting paid what Kirksey is making.

I'll bet I can cover as well as 90% completion too.

LaFleur says #Packers defense discussed today playing soft coverage on third down, says "we have got to shore that up" going forward: "If you're going to play soft in your underneath coverage, it can't be beyond the sticks."

— Ryan Wood (@ByRyanWood) November 23, 2020

I mean, how stupid do you think fans are? - we see it bro...how can you be talking about 'shoring' it up - just friggen do it, I would be so pissed if I am MLF, the blueprint is open and we have not adjusted one damn thing.  don't 'shore' it up, just change it and make it stop, guys playing out of position, running a DE/OLB with 50lbs on a rb or te, stupid. stop it.  right now, don't do it again, seriously...don't do it again, or its your ass. that's the kind of 'shoring' it up conversation i would be having.  playing 10 yards off the line when you need 5 yards for a first don't, stop it, right now, or its your ass...like I said on pos/neg thread, it's rinse/repeat with these dam guys, someone needs to get pissed off and make a stand - change this nonsense.  mlf might be too nice of a guy, well shit rolls downhill and it ends up in his lap, its his team.

Matt LaFleur doesn’t blame the coaches or the players specifically here, but I promise you Mike Pettine doesn’t want his underneath defenders 5 yards past the sticks on 3rd-and-long pic.twitter.com/3dU2f2kMKn

— Peter Bukowski (@Peter_Bukowski) November 23, 2020

Poor Spacing & Awareness... Exhibit A https://t.co/kseZj6rcDo pic.twitter.com/IoeqRCBkHU

— Ben Fennell (@BenFennell_NFL) November 23, 2020

Very little doubt in my mind that Pettine is dead man walking. Someone is going to be sacrificed for the showing of the defense this year.

As has been said so many times, including this same kind of discussion when Capers FAR lingered past his expiration date, teams don’t fire defenses. You fire the one guy you can...that’s Pettine.

I also don’t doubt, with LaFleur literally having best friends and family on teams like the 9ers, Rams and Titans he’s almost certainly gotten unbiased opinions on Pettine and what those teams truly think of the Packers D. And those opinions probably ain’t pretty.  

When Pettine is canned, I’d guess MLF’s choice for DC likely comes from one of those teams  

@michiganjoe posted:

LaFleur says #Packers defense discussed today playing soft coverage on third down, says "we have got to shore that up" going forward: "If you're going to play soft in your underneath coverage, it can't be beyond the sticks."

— Ryan Wood (@ByRyanWood) November 23, 2020

Wow, what an epiphany! Not playing behind the first down marker, who would have thunk it?

@fightphoe93 posted:

I'm not President of the Pettine fan club by any means, but I'm not as ready to give up on him like some are.  I guess seeing a revolving door at D-Coordinator for a long time and seeing in general how tough it is to coach defense in the NFL nowadays has me more willing to let Pettine try to work things out.

I think of the days of when the D-Coordinator moved from Fritz Shurmur (who was very good but ready to retire) to Emmitt Thomas to Ed Donatell to Bob Slowick to Jim Bates to Bob Sander and finally we win a Super Bowl with none other than.... the Dominator Dom Capers.  That right there should tell you how hard it is to find a D-Coordinator, and even if you have a good one like Dom was at that time, the message gets old eventually and you have to move on.

Some of the best defenses I have seen in the past 20 years were led by guys that have "lost their shine" as time has gone on.  From Marvin Lewis to Dan Quinn to Dom Capers to Romeo Crennel to Matt Patricia.... on and on, it just seems like even the guys that have been the most successful D-Coordinators only were able to do it at a high level for a short time and with sort of a magical mix of personnel.  Bill Belichick of course is the exception, but I don't think he's willing to come to the Pack to replace Pettine.

Edit:  Forgot about Dick LeBeau, but at aged 83.... I think he probably just wants to chill out at this point in life instead of trying to turn Ty Summers into a Pro Bowl caliber ILB.

I just want MLF to bring his guy in. Otherwise, I think there is a lot of truth in your post. Philosophically  though,  I think MLF and Pettine are philosophically opposed to each other and it limits MLF.

from what MLF just said up there, I ... I want to guarantee...  but I'm pretty sure Pettine is dead man walking.  You and I have had enough.  I'm sure MLF can see the obvious as well.

Lombardi said "some of us will do our jobs well and others won't, but we all will be judged by one thing .... the result" . Every stat we have says "average to below average" https://www.pro-football-refer...all_team_conversions

McCarthy allowed sloppy D and ST for too long without holding anyone truly accountable. I hope MLF sees where that path leads and changes course.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

They really need to get better at producing big plays on defense and on special teams.

Right now, they have forced 10 turnovers in 9 games. Pettine's scheme is based on forcing the other team to execute long drives and hope you can take advantage of a mistake or get a big sack. 20 sacks in 9 games is average, but 40% of that is Z. Smith.

On special teams, they've returned 7 punts for 39 yards. It's like they almost don't even try to do anything in that area.

Watching Shepard on KR yesterday made me wonder how much time they even spend at all since we mostly just see touchbacks these days. At some point, putting time in to practice nonessentials becomes counterproductive. And Shepard looks completely worthless back there as it is.

It's easy to forget what a chitshow KOR and PR teams were last year before they found Ervin. With his experience, Shepherd should be better than he is or appears to be; better prepared and making better decisions.
Yesterday was a failure at about every level; coaching, plan, and execution by players.
If Pettine goes, I hope Mennenga goes with him.

Situation is similar to McCarthy in 2008. Talented personnel got the defense by in 2007, but teams adjusted to weaknesses in 2008 and the D was pretty ineffective overall. MLF needs to learn from that and make a change.

Thing is, many many people (not naming names) gave Dom a ton of slack for winning SB45.  Pettine, by comparison can't hold Dom's jock strap.  "Hallelujah, Holy shit!  Where's the tylenol."

Watching the Rams Bucs game. Two

REAL

defenses.

even when the offense succeeds, people are there

@DH13 posted:

Thing is, many many people (not naming names) gave Dom a ton of slack for winning SB45.  Pettine, by comparison can't hold Dom's jock strap.  "Hallelujah, Holy shit!  Where's the tylenol."

Frankly when you field a championship defense you did something right and you deserve credit. You can credit it all to talent if you want, but Pettine has talent at every level and we’re not seeing the same results. Lot of layers to being successful and not to dwell on this topic and Capers certainly struggled for a while, but TT dropped the ball as much as Capers did on keeping the talent intact. Took a lot more than just a DC change to make some improvements.

@DH13 posted:

Thing is, many many people (not naming names) gave Dom a ton of slack for winning SB45.  Pettine, by comparison can't hold Dom's jock strap.  "Hallelujah, Holy shit!  Where's the tylenol."

There are 3 Pro Bowl-level guys on this defense: Alexander might be the top corner in the league, Clark is top 5, and Z. Smith is close. Savage and P. Smith are at least decent players. Amos is solid. When Kevin King plays like yesterday, he's at least as good as the average #2CB on any team. 3 great and 4 at least average players out of 11 isn't bad.  There is talent on this defense. The question is whether the weak spots are so bad that they can't overcome them (which really means the 2 other DL positions and 2 ILBs). I wish they'd have done something this off-season to try to improve instead of stocking the offensive skill positions for 2023 with their top picks, but there is no reason this defense can't be at least average.

Be it coaching or not, Alexander is the only defensive player who is playing better than they did last season.