Pettine is GONE, who would be your choice?

I don't really get this tweet....the only time that Clark will truly play NT is when we are in a 5 man front, when we are in "nickel" he is playing DT. I don't think it has anything to do with not having DEs, but rather Pettine's choice of defensive front looks. Am I missing something here?

Jets flush the toilet on DC Williams after less than 2 seasons. Imagine that...holding someone accountable for shit performances...

I’m over old white dudes getting coordinator jobs because they got the purported bonafides. Let MLF go hire who he wants...”you need a veteran presence on your coaching staff.” Bullshit

Offense is run by young bucks...few problems there. ST and D are shitshows...D has a lot of salary cap tied up in it too.

FLUSH THE TOILET!!!

I don't think the Jets organization is one you want to emulate.

@FLPACKER posted:

I don't really get this tweet....the only time that Clark will truly play NT is when we are in a 5 man front, when we are in "nickel" he is playing DT. I don't think it has anything to do with not having DEs, but rather Pettine's choice of defensive front looks. Am I missing something here?

I've long been puzzled by some of his fronts.

If you try to look at the talent on this defense objectively, there is a lot of top end talent. Alexander might be the best CB in the league. When King plays, the other 3 starting DBs are all at least average to above average. Z. Smith is a Pro Bowler as his Clark. Usually when you have 3 Pro Bowl guys on defense and no real weak links in the secondary (as long as Josh Jackson doesn't have to play) you should be pretty effective. It's either that the ILBs are so bad they have to do these weird fronts to hide them or they are trying to do to much cute stuff (which is what the story today on Z. Smith, P. Smith, and others approaching Pettine to make things more simplified could mean)?

Pettine is over thinking it. Simplify and let them play.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

I've long been puzzled by some of his fronts.

If you try to look at the talent on this defense objectively, there is a lot of top end talent. Alexander might be the best CB in the league. When King plays, the other 3 starting DBs are all at least average to above average. Z. Smith is a Pro Bowler as his Clark. Usually when you have 3 Pro Bowl guys on defense and no real weak links in the secondary (as long as Josh Jackson doesn't have to play) you should be pretty effective. It's either that the ILBs are so bad they have to do these weird fronts to hide them or they are trying to do to much cute stuff (which is what the story today on Z. Smith, P. Smith, and others approaching Pettine to make things more simplified could mean)?

IMHO, 2 things: 1) Clark has not played like a pro bowl player this year. His PFF grade right now is a 64.7 .... last year it was 87.8. Now I know he is often double teamed, but he was last year as well & so are all the top guys (top 3 PFF scores for interior d-lineman are around 90) 2) Our ILBers have been awful.

@FLPACKER posted:

IMHO, 2 things: 1) Clark has not played like a pro bowl player this year. His PFF grade right now is a 64.7 .... last year it was 87.8. Now I know he is often double teamed, but he was last year as well & so are all the top guys (top 3 PFF scores for interior d-lineman are around 90) 2) Our ILBers have been awful.

Good data. How are all the other DL relative to last year? If they down across the board that would point to scheme or coaching. If it’s mainly Clark that’s injury or getting paid.

@Henry posted:

I don't think the Jets organization is one you want to emulate.

He shouldn't have been hired in the first place...guy is a scumbag of the highest order.

Point is, Packers have a track record for riding bad decisions for longer than other teams.

I can think of one player or personnel decision where they cut ties with someone and it was a bad thing...Micah Hyde. The list of players and coaches they've kept around too long is robust.

Would like to see a little more urgency given #12's window is rapidly closing for another Super Bowl.

The Love window is wide open tho.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

Good data. How are all the other DL relative to last year? If they down across the board that would point to scheme or coaching. If it’s mainly Clark that’s injury or getting paid.

My eyes tell me:

Clark - Down year, maybe injury related.
Lowry - Worse than last year
Lancaster - Useless, worse than last year
Keke - Big improvement
Adams - Big Improvement

ILB has been a wash.  Kirksey has been a downgrade from Martinez, hard to believe but I think it's accurate, but Barnes and Martin have made up the difference. 

I concur. Replacing Lowry and Lancaster needs to be a priority next draft.

RE:  PFF. 50 drunk Irishmen (yes, I know, that's redundant) created the scale and process for grading. At the time they had little experience with the American game - and were dissatisfied with the stats provided at that time. Their stats are an opinion-based grading. They measure how well a player achieves what they attempted to do (but they don’t know their assignments so can only assess from what they see - like fans). PFF only became relevant because Collingsworth bought a majority interest in the company and convinced his NBC bosses to use it

@BrainDed posted:

My eyes tell me:

Clark - Down year, maybe injury related.
Lowry - Worse than last year
Lancaster - Useless, worse than last year
Keke - Big improvement
Adams - Big Improvement

ILB has been a wash.  Kirksey has been a downgrade from Martinez, hard to believe but I think it's accurate, but Barnes and Martin have made up the difference.

Lowry still shows in spurts, but he has not been consistent. We may have seen/be seeing his ceiling. More Keke and let Lowry rotate in. Rewatched the PHI game last night and Keke is like the Eveready Bunny. Lowry had some pressures, but never got home. Keke, as we all saw, got there.

The Lowry / Keke snaps have been evening out the past few weeks it seems.

Sunday counts.

@YATittle posted:

I concur. Replacing Lowry and Lancaster needs to be a priority next draft.

At the expense of what? An ILB with the reflexes of a sloth? A franchise longsnapper that will lock down that position for the next decade? Surely you jest...

It all starts up front.   For a recent example, recall how the Bears ILB's looked when their front got pushed around.

Yeah I mean when Pettine was with the NYJ they had Bart Scott and David Harris...good ILBs, not great ILBs. Killer DL in front that kept ILBs clean. Everything works in every scheme if everyone so doing their job and can win their individual battles. Right now we have OLBs that freelance a little too much, 3/4 DL that win their 1:1’s about 30% of the time, 1/4 DL that gets buried by OL every play, and ILBs that can track the ball and attack without getting washed by OL about 15% of the time. It’s a lot of talent with not a lot of cohesion.

Strange times we're living friends.  Once again I agree with GD.    Specifically, I think Z freelances too often and it costs us in the run game.

https://www.acmepackingcompany...carson-wentz-benched

Packers are #1 in NFL in defense against 3rd & 6 or longer.  Only letting 16% success.  Also, they played 51% man on Sunday, more than twice their season average.  

I guess 4th and 18 was in the 49%. Gawd I hated that soft zone on that play.

@H5 posted:

Lowry still shows in spurts, but he has not been consistent. We may have seen/be seeing his ceiling. More Keke and let Lowry rotate in. Rewatched the PHI game last night and Keke is like the Eveready Bunny. Lowry had some pressures, but never got home. Keke, as we all saw, got there.

The Lowry / Keke snaps have been evening out the past few weeks it seems.

Sunday counts.

Lowry technically got credit for one sack when he tackled Hurts at the LOS for no gain a couple of plays before the Savage interception.

1st & 10 at GB 33

(2:23 - 4th) (Shotgun) J.Hurts sacked at GB 33 for 0 yards (D.Lowry).

@PA green & gold posted:

https://www.acmepackingcompany...carson-wentz-benched

Packers are #1 in NFL in defense against 3rd & 6 or longer.  Only letting 16% success.  Also, they played 51% man on Sunday, more than twice their season average.  

The rest of the story..

Packers 3rd Down Defense...

Overall Conversions: 38.7% (11th)

🔸3rd & Long (6+): 16.9% (1st)
🔸3rd & Medium (4-6): 48.7% (22nd)
🔸3rd & Short (1-3): 69.7% (29th)

— Ben Fennell (@BenFennell_NFL) December 7, 2020

I wish he would have broken down the number of plays for each. It feels like a fairly even split, but, also feels like too many 3rd and short keeping the drive alive conversions.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

Lowry technically got credit for one sack when he tackled Hurts at the LOS for no gain a couple of plays before the Savage interception.

1st & 10 at GB 33

(2:23 - 4th) (Shotgun) J.Hurts sacked at GB 33 for 0 yards (D.Lowry).

Lowry does show up, but not enough to take snaps from Keke, IMO.

@H5 posted:

I wish he would have broken down the number of plays for each. It feels like a fairly even split, but, also feels like too many 3rd and short keeping the drive alive conversions.

Is the problem 3rd and short or that they  gave up yards on 1st and 2nd?

@Chongo posted:

I can think of one player or personnel decision where they cut ties with someone and it was a bad thing...Micah Hyde.

What about Taysom Hill?

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

Good data. How are all the other DL relative to last year? If they down across the board that would point to scheme or coaching. If it’s mainly Clark that’s injury or getting paid.

I know PFF grades are not "the end all", but they do look at every play & although they may not know the assignment, they can grade who won the individual matchup.        

                              2019                    2020

Lowry                    59.6                     58.1

Lancaster             57.2                      68.6

Adams                  41.3                      63.1

Clark                     87.8                      64.7

@H5 posted:

I wish he would have broken down the number of plays for each. It feels like a fairly even split, but, also feels like too many 3rd and short keeping the drive alive conversions.

Here you go Hung5:

3rd & Long (6+): 11/65
3rd & Medium (4-6): 19/39
3rd & Short (1-3): 23/33

— Ben Fennell (@BenFennell_NFL) December 7, 2020

@Fedya posted:

What about Taysom Hill?

Hill is a football player! Use him wherever.
MacVinnie wouldn't have had the creativity or intelligence. 

Hill was never going to be a starter on this team. Letting Tramon got to Cleveland was a bigger mistake.

@Packdog posted:

Here you go Hung5:

3rd & Long (6+): 11/65
3rd & Medium (4-6): 19/39
3rd & Short (1-3): 23/33

— Ben Fennell (@BenFennell_NFL) December 7, 2020

Thanks for the reply. 137 3rd down plays, 65 are 3rd and >6  and they are 1st in the league stopping those. Of course, more than 1/2 the 3rd down plays are converted at better than 58%. Medium or short on 3rd down with that conversion % might indicate a soft middle?

@Chongo posted:

Hill was never going to be a starter on this team. Letting Tramon got to Cleveland was a bigger mistake.

He didn't need to be a starter.

@Chongo posted:

He shouldn't have been hired in the first place...guy is a scumbag of the highest order.

Point is, Packers have a track record for riding bad decisions for longer than other teams.

I can think of one player or personnel decision where they cut ties with someone and it was a bad thing...Micah Hyde. The list of players and coaches they've kept around too long is robust.

Would like to see a little more urgency given #12's window is rapidly closing for another Super Bowl.

I should've added a "just sayin' "

I agree.

@Chongo posted:

At the expense of what? An ILB with the reflexes of a sloth? A franchise longsnapper that will lock down that position for the next decade? Surely you jest...

It's obvious this is what the next Ray Guy is missing.  Power house snapping/punting wins championships.

@Grave Digger posted:

Yeah I mean when Pettine was with the NYJ they had Bart Scott and David Harris...good ILBs, not great ILBs. Killer DL in front that kept ILBs clean. Everything works in every scheme if everyone so doing their job and can win their individual battles. Right now we have OLBs that freelance a little too much, 3/4 DL that win their 1:1’s about 30% of the time, 1/4 DL that gets buried by OL every play, and ILBs that can track the ball and attack without getting washed by OL about 15% of the time. It’s a lot of talent with not a lot of cohesion.

IDK about "a lot of talent" ...look at our front vs. some of the better defenses;

Washington - all 4 d-lineman are First Round picks

NO - all 4 starters are First Round picks

NY Giants - 2 First rounders and a second rounder.

Rams - 3 First Round Picks

   That isn't even taking into consideration ILBers.

Looks like Pettine is our Annie Sullivan

We don’t have 3 first round picks, but we have 2 and 3 Pro Bowl caliber players in the front. Combined with 3 first round picks in the DB core, and a collection of role players that are capable I think Pettine has enough talent to make a better go of things than he has.

That is the point ...Clark isn't playing like a pro bowl player, & Smiths are not as good as last year. I really don't think we are more talented than 21 defenses in the league and that is where we are;  11th

Z is starting to play better and Gary is starting make up for the lack of production from P.   

Adams and Keke are playing better making up for the drop from Clark.   

That said, run D is still our weakness and a good coach with a good OL will exploit it.   That's why I hope to hell San Fran doesn't get in the dance.