Packers Defensive Coordinator (Sole Stealer) Joe Barry is FIRED!!

There's a lot of chicken/egg argument here but the most impressive thing about Matt Foley's defense is seeing perennial turds likes Lowry, Lancaster, Keke all just flying around making an impact on the game.

It begs the question if the scheme is letting all these guys play fast and loose, which gives us great performances from guys like Campbell and Douglas.

I'm sure it's a combination of things but a collection of turds on the team pre-Foley and some journeyman players post-Foley all playing lights out ball makes you wonder how much is scheme.

One thing for sure is there is a very different vibe on this defense.  That may be the motivational speaker coming out.

@BrainDed posted:

Agree.  So far the ranking goes Barry > Pettine > Capers.

Capers defense worked really well in all of his stops when he had 1-2 "coach-on-the-field" types to keep it organized.

It looked really good with Charles Woodson and Nick Collins making up half the secondary. Tramon being another DB back there didn't hurt either. All three of those guys were instinctive football players (Woodson was one of the best ever in that regard) and could handle somewhat complex schemes. You could argue that those guys would have looked good in any scheme, but they were a great fit for Dom's schemes.

When you have a bunch of younger guys back there, Dom's schemes always seemed to confuse them as much or more than the opponent.

I agree with others (Henry), having an ILB that is a Pro Bowl candidate makes a huge difference. It would have been interesting to see Pettine's scheme with Campbell instead of Kirksey or Martinez. But you can't argue that Barry's schemes don't work and that it was a great hire by MLF in the face of criticism for Barry's past performances. Now, if he could have just done even 50% of that level of a hire for special teams....

A bit from the piece:

Yet, while both defenses are built on the belief that pass defense wins games and championships, they have very different approaches to defending the run. And if we’ve learned one thing from watching Barry’s defense this season, it’s that the Packers’ recurring issues stopping the run under Pettine were more about scheme and approach, and less about the players.

Some more:

When I asked an offensive line coach for a recent Packers opponent about the difference he sees in Barry’s run defense vs. Pettine’s, he said simply: “More sound.”

It is also worth reminding people that Barry was not MLF's first choice. That would be the dude in Madison, WI.

Interesting how that turned out as well.  

Yeah, I wonder what the defense would look like today with Leonhard as DC.

Given all the injuries, I doubt it would be any better.

Play vs the run also improved with Gary in place of Z.

I still see improvements in individual players as the main factor in defenses improvement ....and Barry deserves credit for that. A healthy Kenny Clark ,improved play from Lowry, and the upgrade at ILBers are huge. Biggest thing I see in this defense is energy, enthusiasm, rallying to the ball, and "bringing the wood" once they get there.... exactly what MLF was looking for.

@michiganjoe posted:

When I asked an offensive line coach for a recent Packers opponent about the difference he sees in Barry’s run defense vs. Pettine’s, he said simply: “More sound.”

Thank you unnamed offensive line coach.

It's more better.

Just a reminder that players/coaches are still essentially a bunch of jugheads. 

@Chongo posted:

Kirksey was Pettine's hand-picked ILB.

Barnes is nothing more than a competent backup...if they'd actually spend a top pick on an ILB like Roquan Smiff or Patrick Queen they'd be even better.

The reason Campbell is doing so well this year is largely because the Packers are doing something they haven't done in a long time...get consistent pressure with only four DL/OLB. Pettine and Compers couldn't do that with any sort of regularity.

I shit on the Double L's a lot, but they've both stepped up their game this season. And Slaton I think is also underrated...much like college, he was known for his run D, but his interior pass rush is something we haven't had in a while.

Patrick Queen has been shit as an ILB. So much do that the Ravens moved him outside. He has been better there.

@michiganjoe posted:

They've also apparently learned to tackle.

As recently as two weeks ago the Packers were #1 in the league with the fewest missed tackles.

@Goalline posted:

Patrick Queen has been shit as an ILB. So much do that the Ravens moved him outside. He has been better there.

What about in Matt Foley's system?

Point being, it doesn't have to be Queen or any specific player.  It's about not ignoring positions wholesale and just pinning your hopes on finding some low cost solution.  Campbell's performance has been huge.  You aren't going to find consistent performance by grinding through every UDFA and journeyman out there.  They better pay Campbell. 

And people said Roquan was too small...and the dude has been a stud for them. I'd like to take a risk on an ILB in the first two rounds at some point. As with any position in the draft, you just never know how good a guy will be. But ILB has been an afterthought for this franchise when it comes to drafting for a while. Just saying I'd like to see a shift in philosophy

@Chongo posted:

Just saying I'd like to see a shift in philosophy

You'd like to see the Packers spend premium resources on a non-premium position. Would a kick- ass ILB be a great addition ? Of course !
Its just not a good use of limited resources and on some level, I think you appreciate that.

The Packers front office snagged DeVondre Campbell for a day-old ham sandwich and he's playing lights out football at ILB.
Which is both a wonderful thing and an indictment of your suggested shift in strategery. ( Campbell was drafted in 4th round)

I have zero hope that you and your ilk will change your minds on the topic and its just as unlikely the GB front office is going to change theirs...

So here we are...

@Satori posted:

You'd like to see the Packers spend premium resources on a non-premium position. Would a kick- ass ILB be a great addition ? Of course !
Its just not a good use of limited resources and on some level, I think you appreciate that.

The Packers front office snagged DeVondre Campbell for a day-old ham sandwich and he's playing lights out football at ILB.
Which is both a wonderful thing and an indictment of your suggested shift in strategery. ( Campbell was drafted in 4th round)

I have zero hope that you and your ilk will change your minds on the topic and its just as unlikely the GB front office is going to change theirs...

So here we are...

Patrick Willis and Navarro Bowman pretty pretty premium fucking players Kemosabe...

@Goalline posted:

As recently as two weeks ago the Packers were #1 in the league with the fewest missed tackles.

I expect to wake up tomorrow morning with my head sewn to the floor.

@Chongo posted:

Patrick Willis and Navarro Bowman pretty pretty premium fucking players Kemosabe...

And they played behind elite/good defensive lines. So, who were the main difference makers on those defenses?

BTW, Roquan Smith was drafted waaaay before we could. Why are you dropping his name so often. He ALSO plays behind an elite line and when he’s been hurt the Bears have enjoyed good performances from the ILB position.

Since the Stone Age of football there have been precious few ILB that dictated the game. Roquan Smith ain’t one of those. Khalil Mack and the Akiem Hicks on the other hand?

Very true yet it can't be a coincidence that the GB D just looks different with an ILB playing the way Campbell has this year.

People on this forum seem to be infatuated with oft injured players they wish the Packers drafted.

@DH13 posted:

Very true yet it can't be a coincidence that the GB D just looks different with an ILB playing the way Campbell has this year.

It isn’t. We were woefully understaffed at ILB, but you don’t need an all world ILB to win. A good one is enough.

All the positions matter ... very good ILBers allow teams to play two in the box because they can still get to the ball when run outside the tackles (which both TB and SF have had when we lost playoff games to them ... our "wide zone" run play was ineffective because of it). However, if your interior D-line is poor and no one demands a double-team, O-lineman will be able to get out and block the ILBers and you will have trouble stopping the run between the tackles. This is why Kenny Clark is the most valuable player on our defense, he allows for everything else to happen. If he isn't on the field no one is demanding a double, no one is going to be disruptive between the tackles and adjustments that have to be made leave you vulnerable to other offensive action. Over the years when AR has been asked about opposing top defenses he has often said "they have elite players at all three levels" ....the way Campbell is playing & if Jaire comes back, we now have that.

I think we can survive without a HOF type MLB for sure... but GB needs quality players there.  We've seen what shitty MLB's look like regardless of who is lining up in front of them.  

@Satori posted:

The Packers front office snagged DeVondre Campbell for a day-old ham sandwich and he's playing lights out football at ILB.

Which is both a wonderful thing and an indictment of your suggested shift in strategery. ( Campbell was drafted in 4th round)

I have zero hope that you and your ilk will change your minds on the topic and its just as unlikely the GB front office is going to change theirs...

Why don't we try explaining it this way to your ilk.

One position is bad, really bad.  Has been really bad for a looong time.  So bad to the point the whole defense is a gaping chasm in the middle which causes your team to get trucked by teams who think having defensive skill in the middle of the field and knowing how to attack bad defenses is a good thing, particularly in the playoffs.  You know, those games that get you to a Super Bowl, which we all know isn't as important as a division title.

So tell me exactly about this evaluation of "premium positions"?

"Well by golly, the ILB position just isn't a "premium position" so it's okay that it's a complete fucking dumpster fire that causes this defense to be middling at best and usually towards the bottom of NFL rankings.  It's okay to get trucked by teams like the 9ers and be neutralized by the Bucs because it's not a "premium position".  But that's our philosophy so it makes total sense and it's 100% correct!"

"Oh, I feel so vindicated!  I gave this ILB a ham sandwich and he's playing lights out!  His non-premium position is making such a huge impact the Packers defense is playing its best football in over a decade but clearly not because of being an ILB because it's a non-premium position.  It must be the ham sandwich!  I gave this other CB a ham sandwich that wasn't even on the team until October and look how great he's playing!  What's important is the ham sandwiches!!!"

*Mayo*   "Uh Gunt, those aren't ham sandwiches, it's chicken salad.  Me and Matt Foley are running the deli counter".

@Pakrz posted:

I think we can survive without a HOF type MLB for sure... but GB needs quality players there.  We've seen what shitty MLB's look like regardless of who is lining up in front of them.  

And this would be the entire point.  It isn't about dumping massive resources into the ILB position but at least doing more than handing out ham sandwiches at the Goodwill and crossing your fingers.

@Goalline posted:

It isn’t. We were woefully understaffed at ILB, but you don’t need an all world ILB to win. A good one is enough.

"Good"

A decade to simply find a good ILB and on a flyer contract.

"I'm a genius!  I just gave a surefire good ILB a one year burner contract!  All part of the plan!"

Why didn't you give him a longer contract if you knew he was so good?

"Because it's a non premium position!  Silly rabbit."

Oh, of course.  Makes total sense.  Good to see Oren Burks is still employed. 

I'm not necessarily saying we must spend a top 2 rounds pick on ILB, but there needs to be an emphasis on getting better ones than we've had.

We used to have a pretty good track record for ILB...Barnett, Brad Jones, Bishop, etc.

Since 2011, we have sucked balls at D&D the ILB position.

Last year we saw flashes of good play from Martin (good riddance) and Barnes. Campbell has been incredible...imagine what someone like a Brad Jones or Des Bish would look like next to him. Those two guys were hardly "premium picks."

@Goalline posted:

BTW, Roquan Smith was drafted waaaay before we could. Why are you dropping his name so often. He ALSO plays behind an elite line and when he’s been hurt the Bears have enjoyed good performances from the ILB position.

Because he's a good example of what spending a high quality pick on ILB can get you...and I'm not saying that always equates to success...plenty of high pick ILB who have done squat...probably more than have become pro bowlers. But you can say that for almost any position.

Mack was en edge guy when he came into the league, and has since migrated around the field.

So every great LB is that way because they play behind an elite DL? Cory Littleton did pretty well with the Rams...outside of Aaron Donald, I'd hardly call their DL those years "elite." Kenny Clark is pretty elite. We've got some elite edge rushers too. So maybe if we had another good interior DL instead of relying on the Double L's we'd see Barnes, Burks or Summers blossom into great players?

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.

Brad Jones? 

Yeah, I think the list starts and stops with Bishop.

Barnett was pretty good pre-Dom?  But wasn't Brad Jones Oren Burks before Oren Burks?

That's just insulting but he was pretty bad.

@DH13 posted:

Barnett was pretty good pre-Dom?  But wasn't Brad Jones Oren Burks before Oren Burks?

Sort of..  he moved from outside, where he sucked, to inside, where he sucked even more.  Then TT gave him a big extension.  

So...we talking about Jones or Burks?  Or was Burks the opposite?  I think he started inside. 

Campbell got into a system that fits his skills and has excelled.  If you watch him out here directing before the snap, you can see he really has a grasp on the defense. Looks to me like the other teams didn't understand what they had.

When Brad Jones is one of a handful of guys that are an example of non-failures you know that's a shithole of a position.

@Chongo posted:

I'd like to take a risk on an ILB in the first two rounds at some point.

@Chongo posted:

I'm not necessarily saying we must spend a top 2 rounds pick on ILB

Tough to argue with that sequence of suggestions.
Kindly let us know, when you know, what it is... that you want.

One of the things that Barry espouses is the concept of DL playing a gap and a half instead of just one gap. I'm not certain how this all works at the snap of the ball, but it was listed as one of the reasons that the Packers DL has done better under Barry than Pettine. Run fits/gap integrity are super important

https://www.acmepackingcompany...-staley-jim-leonahrd

Defensive tackle Ricky-Jean Francois described Barry’s approach in simple terms

“He’s not going to be trying to be the more aggressive dude. Only aggressive when he needs to. But at the same time, his one biggest thing is he wants his front four to get pressure. That was the biggest thing he emphasized. If he’s got DBs in the backend covering, he wants to be able to send that front four and drop seven. That’s every defensive coordinator’s dream to do. I want that dream to come true for him.”

"The Francois quote jibes with how the Rams looked last season, though Staley made the calls not Barry. L.A. played light boxes over 80% of the time last year, the most in the league with Fangio’s Broncos right behind. Still this was a top-5 run defense because of how they attack OL gaps and used their team speed. Imagine how jealous Pettine must have been about a team with no stud linebacker, playing a bunch of sub-package and still stopping the run effectively.

"The Rams stole gaps with slanting, penetrating defensive linemen, coverage disguise pre-snap, and disciplined, speedy back-end players."

Lots more in the article, but some of the improved play at ILB is directly attributed to changes in the DL protecting them

@Satori posted:

Tough to argue with that sequence of suggestions.
Kindly let us know, when you know, what it is... that you want.

Boobs.

Always boobs.

The #Packers Redzone defense has made some miraculous improvements:

Weeks 1-6:
15 Redzone trips, 15 TDs allowed.
Worst Redzone defense in NFL history.

Weeks 7-14:
18 Redzone trips, 8 TDs allowed.
Best Redzone defense in the NFL.

— Daire Carragher (@DaireCarragher) December 14, 2021

Quite the RZ turnaround...

Wayne Simmons. Wonder what he would do in this defense.

The only real flaw I've seen with them over this last stretch is giving up the big play.  Usually on the long ball.