Thank you BrainDed
The head coach is responsible for every aspect.
Think Vince would have hesitated to jump on Bengston?
@packerboi posted:Interesting conversation with NFL Insider Ross Tucker and The Fan in Milwaukee with Gary Ellerson and Leroy Butler. They read him this quote from MLF last night:
LaFleur said that he told defensive coordinator Joe Barry to either play coverage or get after the quarterback because playing man and sending just four in the first half wasn't creating any pressure. Barry started to bring pressure more in the second half and it helped.
ā Tom Silverstein (@TomSilverstein) September 21, 2021Tucker was somewhat shocked by the quote but said that is consistent with what's heard around the NFL about LaFleur and his being overly involved in the defensive side of the football. Essentially that it's well known MLF is a micromanager of his coaches and if he had said that to Pettine, Pettine would have told him to go pound sand. Then both hosts said they also heard this was something known about LaFleur and that's a key reason Pettine had no interest in re-signing with the Packers.
Then they eluded to perhaps that's a reason Leonhard may have turned down the DC position.
Anyway, take it for what it's worth but some interesting takes for sure.
So basically Mayo wanted a guy who he could tell what to do because Pettine knew what he was doing and wouldn't be micromanaged.
Again, after seeing the first two games of the new "energy" in comparison to what Pettine squeezed out of this half ass cobbled together defense leads to a lot of questions about what exactly is going on with this coaching staff.
This is the exact same shit that sent Sherman into the shitter. HC's need to balance between apathy (McVince) and complete micromanagers (Sherman). It also helps to fucking hire competent people. Barry? WTF?
@BrainDed posted:Well, perhaps if they were to produce some results then they wouldn't get micro managed?
We were all thinking the same thing at the start of the game. The entire country was thinking it after the 1st couple drives save for Barry who had to be told.
You have a brand new DC and that defense came out flatter than shit. Most DCs get a bit of honeymoon where the players are all amped about the "new scheme" and "it's awesome" bullshit.
Barry lays a big fucking turd. Why the fuck was this guy brought in?
Hereās the thing - for all intents and purposes it was MLF that signed off on hiring Barry. Itās entirely possible that MLF knew he could exert control over him v Pettine because on the surface his past DC history with Detroit and Washington left a lot to be desired. If you follow Joe Barryās employment record heās bounced around a lot.
The issue is compounded by the fact this isnāt a very talented group on defense. I mean, Jaire and LC and Z are elite level players, and Amos is above average, and yes Gary and Savage and even Stokes have a lot of upside. But the fact remains that half of their starters on D are either unproven or just arenāt any good. Some of the backups like Summers and Burks and Sullivan shouldnāt even be on a goddamn NFL roster.
So, not to piss in everyoneās Cheerios but it will take a historic effort by the offense and special teams for this team to be a serious contender in the NFC given the state of this team on that side of the ball - players and coaches. Can it be done? Sure. But Iād say itās about as likely as me trying to defend Giannis 1:1 in the paint and not get dunked on into oblivion.
@Tschmack posted:t will take a historic effort by the offense and special teams for this team to be a serious contender in the NFC
I think you fell down and hit your head. Those "core STers" are the stiffs that shouldn't even be on an NFL roster as you stated. Plus, what could possibly make the ST better after a decade? Shit, Janis was the last bright spot in 10 years.
Excluding Crosby of course.
I think anyone that honestly believes this is a real contender has fallen down and hit their head.
The special teams arenāt good but they should be more impactful than the defense at this point. That should scare the living shit out of just about anyone.
I really didnāt need to read that insight about MLF and Barry. I mean, the FO has already buggered up things as it is but if the coaching implodes well, at least we can look back fondly on SB45.
Welp, the punter after 2 weeks looks like an upgrade over Opie. So I guess thereās that ?
@Tschmack posted:I think anyone that honestly believes this is a real contender has fallen down and hit their head.
The special teams arenāt good but they should be more impactful than the defense at this point. That should scare the living shit out of just about anyone.
I really didnāt need to read that insight about MLF and Barry. I mean, the FO has already buggered up things as it is but if the coaching implodes well, at least we can look back fondly on SB45.
Favorite. Absolutely not. Contender, yeah. They should win the North which will give them a punchers chance.
Am I happy about that? No. We should have built a roster around #12 that makes us favorites. That said, I'm trying to enjoy the season so I will put my focus on the punchers chance for now.
Too many up and comers plus established very good teams in the NFC this year. And I think we play all of them. Last year was their best shot. If the D doesn't find a way to improve, I'm just going to try to enjoy this AR/offense's sunset and hope it doesn't rain.
@DH13 posted:Too many up and comers plus established very good teams in the NFC this year. And I think we play all of them. Last year was their best shot. If the D doesn't find a way to improve, I'm just going to try to enjoy this AR/offense's sunset and hope it doesn't rain.
This.
Carolina.
Cardinals.
Niners if healthy.
Rams.
I don't think trading Rodgers in season would give you much leverage but it's a thought that would cross my mind at this point. It won't happen because the FO thinks this is a defense that can win in the playoffs and Super Bowl.
Almost doesn't matter what happens because it'll be the same shit FO pulling the strings. Better hope Nub is the next HOFer QB.
@DH13 posted:I'm just going to try to enjoy this AR/offense's sunset and hope it doesn't rain.
Yep, me too.
And hey, Stokes looks worthy of paying attention to (even though I'm sure he'll have some growing pains along the way).
With Stokes and Jaire the Pack 2 may finally have 2 quality corners who can cover for 4-5 seconds while Lowry, Lancaster, and Keke hand fight with their betters on the other teams' Olines.
@YATittle posted:This.
Carolina.
Cardinals.
Niners if healthy.
Rams.
There is also a team in Tampa Bay.
DAL has a lot of talent on both sides of the ball, if MM can figure out how to use it all correctly.
PHI has some young pieces looking up too.
You never know with SEA.
Luckily the rest of our division sucks so there is always winning the North. Should keep the lights on at the sledding hill.
@Henry posted:Better hope Nub is the next HOFer QB.
Yeah, about that.
Got up to pee at 2:00 a.m. Monday morning after watching Mahomes and Jackson in the epic Sunday Night game. The thought occurred to me that to my eyes, Love's skill set is closer to Brett Hundley's than the two guys mentioned. It made me sad to be up peeing at 2:00 a.m. thinking about the Packers future---would edibles help?
Only if they are your wife's edible panties.
@Blair Kiel posted:Yeah, about that.
Got up to pee at 2:00 a.m. Monday morning after watching Mahomes and Jackson in the epic Sunday Night game. The thought occurred to me that to my eyes, Love's skill set is closer to Brett Hundley's than the two guys mentioned. It made me sad to be up peeing at 2:00 a.m. thinking about the Packers future---would edibles help?
I still have trouble sleeping when I remember what Hundley looked like when he was playing.
Believe it or not, Hundley might be back on an active roster (for the Colts) this week.
It's going to be a rude awakening (whenever it happens) for Packer fans that don't remember the 80s to see a season in which a future HOFer isn't playing QB.
Including playoffs, Favre or Rodgers have started 385 of the last 403 Packer games. Hundley started 9 of those games. Flynn (6), Tolzein (2), and Seneca Wallace (1) were the others.
Thank god that MLF was there at half time to point out that rushing four against five with a chipping TE and a blocking back might not be enough.
Alternate version: Nice halftime adjustment!
@DH13 posted:Too many up and comers plus established very good teams in the NFC this year. And I think we play all of them. Last year was their best shot. If the D doesn't find a way to improve, I'm just going to try to enjoy this AR/offense's sunset and hope it doesn't rain.
Not to mention Steelers, Ravens, Browns, Chefs. A formidable out of conference schedule, along with probably every conference game playing a huge part in any type of HFA should they survive such a brutal docket. There are no gimmes that I can see, and if there was one it was last night.
The Packers are only the 5th defense since 2010 to not have a player register a sack the first two weeks of the season
ā Mike Renner (@PFF_Mike) September 21, 2021
Reading this page is all too depressing, but itās truth. Can someone explain to me how deficiencies so obvious and glaring to the average person seem to escape the eyes of the front office and coaching staff ? What is the thinking and motivation?
Does the FO play us all for suckers and know that profits wonāt be effected by fielding such a crappy product (on defense mainly due to how the QB play elevates the offense), or are they simply just horrible evaluators of talent at the player and coaching levels? Iād blame MLF for the hire, but GBās defensive deficiencies seem to be systemic. Hell, the same could be said for the entire product on the field minus the play at QB. Stating whatās been said before I know. Just venting.
"simply just horrible evaluators"
This. Look at all the draft capital they have used on D. They see the problem, they are just really bad at fixing it.
Itās simply amazing that this team took King and Biegel over T J W.
Talk about a domino effect.
I wanted Watt and I must confess I thought Beigel would be a player. Not a star but a good solid contributor.
@Tavis Smiley posted:Reading this page is all too depressing, but itās truth. Can someone explain to me how deficiencies so obvious and glaring to the average person seem to escape the eyes of the front office and coaching staff ? What is the thinking and motivation?
Does the FO play us all for suckers and know that profits wonāt be effected by fielding such a crappy product (on defense mainly due to how the QB play elevates the offense), or are they simply just horrible evaluators of talent at the player and coaching levels? Iād blame MLF for the hire, but GBās defensive deficiencies seem to be systemic. Hell, the same could be said for the entire product on the field minus the play at QB. Stating whatās been said before I know. Just venting.
Between 2005-2010 Ted did some magical drafting (Rodgers, Collins, Jennings, Jordy, J. Jones, Finley, Clay, Lang, Sitton and others I'm forgetting).
But all that great (mostly on the offensive side of the ball) drafting goes for naught unless Charles Woodson is signed in free agency to provide playmaking ability and leadership on the D. He became a defensive player of the year in GB.
Everyone also knows, or should know by now, that Ted was not principally responsible for signing Charles, that was John Schneider's doing.
After 2010, when Schneider, Dorsey, and McKenzie all departed, Ted was left with young yes men like Gutey and Ted decided to go "all in" on "drafting and developing" his own draft picks. He ignored free agency like no other NFL GM and never once made a trade for a player of note. Not one.
Pre-Gute taking over for Ted, the Pack's loyalty to their own was evident in such moves as giving a JAG like Datone Jones 4 years to prove his 1st round draft status (he never did), giving Brad Jones a new deal because he filled in at ILBer due to injury, and patiently waiting for Nick Perry to prove he was a 1st round worthy talent and then, when he had his 1 decent season (out of 7), re-signing him to a huge new deal (the catastrophe that was GB's 2017 offseason -- including taking King over Watt, signing Martellus Bennett for more $ than Cook, re-sigining Perry, letting Hyde walk, taking Josh Jones, Montravious Adams, and VInce Biegel in rounds 2-4, respectively cannot be overstated).
But the poster child for what the GB front office wanted on D is AJ Hawk. Think about what that meant/means for a moment.
After over-paying AJ (under the old CBA) due to his top 5 draft status for 5 years, the team tore up his contract and made him the highest-paid ILBer in the NFL (right after the 2010 SB win). Who possibly could have watched Hawk and thought, whatever his strengths, that he was worthy of that contract?
And we all know Hawk was so bad that he was forced to take not 1, but 2 pay cuts before the team finally took mercy on Packer fans and put AJ down after the 2014 debacle in the 2014 NFC Championship loss in Seattle.
What sort of message did the signing of Hawk send (inside and outside the organization)?
What sort of messages were sent when pain in the butt, but very productive, Cullen Jenkins was not signed?
Remember when Woodson criticized Dom's pathetic game plan against Kap in the 2012 playoffs and said the team needed more veteran talent on D after the 2012 season?
How did the Pack respond to the Hall of Famers absolutely correct statements? It told Wood to hit the road back to Oakland where he had a couple more productive seasons at Safety and we got to see M.D. Jennings and Jerron McMillian's historically bad safety play in 2013.
The cluster-Fs on the defensive side of the ball pre-Gute as GM are too numerous to mention.
Gute immediately took steps to change the dynamic on D by signing the Smiths and Amos. But then, in true Packer Front Office fashion he decided to reward a JAG like Lowry - the first head-scratcher move that made one think Gute was not too far removed from Ted's approach to the defensive side of the ball.
And any doubt on the matter was erased when Gute, without a gun to his head, willingly re-signed King, Lancaster, and Redmond this offseason.
The only way things change on defense is if someone fresh, FROM OUTSIDE OF THE ORGANIZATION, is brought in to take over.
And we all know that is not going to change as long as the front office is protected by Rodgers and the offense being good enough to win the crappy NFC North year after year. Rinse, repeat ... you know the drill.
Steve. Thatās pretty spot on and damning.
Yeah.. I'm tired of being pissed about it. Maybe I'm finally old enough to realize this shit isn't important or maybe after so many years of knowing the same thing is going to happen as last year that I'm numb to it.
Either way, I'm just going to try and enjoy the last year of HOF QB play in Green Bay. If the Defense pulls a rabbit out of it's ass, great! If not, oh well, hockey season will be in full swing.
@Pikes Peak posted:I wanted Watt and I must confess I thought Beigel would be a player. Not a star but a good solid contributor.
Biegel as a 4th rounder was worth the risk. You don't expect superstars in the 4th round (Bakhtiari is an obvious outlier). Biegel was never going to be a star, but if he doesn't break his foot in his first training camp, maybe he's at least a core special teamer and a guy you can play a few snaps a game at LB.
As Herschel said for Jamal Reynolds, King was taken in part because of how badly they whiffed in the infamous 2015 draft when they selected Randall and Rollins in the top 2 rounds. Randall/Rollins were tied to them somehow deciding that Casey Hayward and Micah Hyde were players they needed upgrades from. They finally got this right with Alexander, but not without completely whiffing on Josh Jones, Josh Jackson, etc.
The underlying problem the Packers have had since 2010 is almost a level of incompetence in evaluating talent on defense. If you consider the top 4 rounds where you are going to get most of your top talent, from 2010-2019 they've drafted 26 defensive players in the top 4 rounds of the draft. They've gotten some right, but they may have wasted more top picks on guys that can't even contribute on special teams or as backups than any team in the league. Of the 26, you can classify them as follows. A grades are perennial pro bowlers, B grades are solid to good guys that you don't regret taking. C grades are backups that you'd want to upgrade from and you'd like to do better in those rounds but can still contribute to a roster. Ds and Fs are obvious busts.
A - Alexander
B - Kenny Clark (B+), Mike Daniels, Blake Martinez, Savage, C. Hayward (A as a Charger)
C- Fackrell, Jake Ryan, Clinton-Dix, Nick Perry, Davon House, Rashan Gary (trending down), Dean Lowry,
D/F- Josh Jackson, Josh Jones, DeMarcus Randall, Q. Rollins, J. Worthy, Oren Burks, Kyri Thorton, J. Worthy, Jerron McMillan, Datone Jones, Montravious Adamas, Vince Biegel, Carl Bradford
13 of the 26 guys they drafted in rounds 1-4 over a 10 year period were guys that either were or bordered on being completely unplayable (in some cases even on special teams).
If some of these guys were Cs or Bs, everything looks better (including improving their non-Crosby ineptitude on special teams over the last decade)
There needs to be a better mechanism to reign in/remove shit presidents. There also needs to be an absolute fire wall between the president and football operations outside of hiring/firing the GM.
Just reviewing the past decade of D draft choices is depressing - one is all of the misses (I get that you can't hit on all picks, but way too many backup/washout players), but two is the high draft capital in rounds 1-3 that did not even result in solid starters. No DC can be successful with that cavalcade of suck.
Iām convinced that somewhere around 2015 timeframe TT was put on the shelf and someone else (ala Russ Ball) was making those draft picks.
If you follow Thompsonās scouting and drafting history heās made some really good choices at the DB position going all the way back to his first stint in Green Bay and then Seattle. He had a eye for talent in that sense and made a lot of good moves and choices. Shields, Collins, Burnett, Trufant, Hamlin, etc.
One of the questions I have is did TT stop going on the road to scout as much as he previously did? It can't be understated the talent drain from the FO after the Super Bowl and if TT was dealing with health issues I'm assuming he wasn't on the road as much as he previously was. IMO, that's where the stooges come in concerning decision making. I don't think TT was able to see the full minutiae of the organization anymore which led to the dope show.
Or maybe he went on the road to do the thing he loved and the day to day stuff ended up in the hands of Ball.
How many times did GB call Khyri Thorntonās house before he answered?
@Henry posted:So basically Mayo wanted a guy who he could tell what to do because Pettine knew what he was doing and wouldn't be micromanaged.
Again, after seeing the first two games of the new "energy" in comparison to what Pettine squeezed out of this half ass cobbled together defense leads to a lot of questions about what exactly is going on with this coaching staff.
This is the exact same shit that sent Sherman into the shitter. HC's need to balance between apathy (McVince) and complete micromanagers (Sherman). It also helps to fucking hire competent people. Barry? WTF?
I heard that story on the radio driving home yesterday morning. Sure sounds like MLF wanted a "yes man" as his DC. I wonder if he rubbed Leonhard the wrong way during his interview.
The radio guys theory was there was no way Barry would say no to the job offer no matter how he felt about MLF. No one else was going to give him another shot as a DC.
When asked about the D call right before the half in the Tampa Bay NFCCG, MLF said he was in on it, OKed the "they're playing it to get 10 yards more for a field goal," and we saw what happened.
Or maybe Pettine wanted to play for the Hail Mary and MLF overruled him....
Who knows.
Anyone ever get fired because people thought you sucked?
This front 7 is pure trash. The secondary is really good.
Im just gonna say if there was ever an opportunity to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. This is it.
And by no means is this a nod to Barry.
@Henry posted:One of the questions I have is did TT stop going on the road to scout as much as he previously did? It can't be understated the talent drain from the FO after the Super Bowl and if TT was dealing with health issues I'm assuming he wasn't on the road as much as he previously was. IMO, that's where the stooges come in concerning decision making. I don't think TT was able to see the full minutiae of the organization anymore which led to the dope show.
Or maybe he went on the road to do the thing he loved and the day to day stuff ended up in the hands of Ball.
To be fair to Ted, he was obviously dealing with significant health issues probably as early as 2012 (from August 2014) ... "Ted Thompson has a new contract and a new outlook on life as he begins his 10th season as general manager of the Green Bay Packers. The unspecified health issues that dogged Thompson in the recent past ..."
https://archive.jsonline.com/s...05z1-269690771.html/
Also, he was still pretty good on the offensive side of the ball post-SB. Cobb, Adams, Bakh, Linsley, Aaron Jones, Jamal Williams. He just royally sucked when it came to defense (outside of Kenny Clark) from 2010 onward (except for Hayward and Hyde who he chose not to re-sign and in Hyde's case played out of position in GB).
There is no question that Ted's health issues contributed to the deterioration of the product on the field or that the problem was allowed to fester for far longer (5 years?) than it should have because (i) there is no owner to take command, (ii) Murphy was an absent-President, and (iii) the Board is either powerless or feckless or both.