Baffling how his mechanics have regressed. Does lend some credence to an injury and potentially over compensating in another area of his body.
ChilliJon posted:This is a pretty good summation of how, when, and why things have broken down with the offense.
Link.
We've been talking about MM needing to reel in #12 and play within the offense for a while now. The problem is two fold in my opinion. One, I don't think he can, the ego has become too big to contain. Two, I don't think he wants to. He believes that this current approach is the best approach.
Rodgers needs to get knocked down mentally and then built back up by having success within the framework of a scheme. With all the history they have together in this scheme, MM is not the guy who can get that done.
That piece really points to MM's offense as being the problem rather than AR:
I’ve written at length about Green Bay’s offensive issues over the last two seasons, and here’s what I believe to be true: McCarthy and his coaches have designed and are implementing an overall offensive game plan that is unsustainable in the modern NFL.
Over time, Rodgers has overcompensated for the things that offense doesn’t provide to the point where it’s broken him as a mechanically consistent player.
More:
McCarthy can go on and on about 400 yards of offense, but that misses the larger point: His future Hall-of-Fame quarterback has been rendered dysfunctional by a limited series of schemes that force him to play outside structure to the point that there is little structure left.
More:
I’ve been watching the relative simplicity of the Packers’ passing game over the last two seasons, and I begin to wonder exactly what decade McCarthy seems to think he’s coaching. In, say, 1973, you could send your receivers out on straight isolation routes and win. Base defenses were base defenses, and as a receiver, the most you had to worry about was Mel Blount or George Atkinson turning you over and dropping you on your head.
But now, in an era where nickel and dime defenses are the norm, and hybrid defenders stalk the field presenting all sorts of new challenges, sending your guys out there to beat their guys just doesn’t cut it.
I have posted about this back to last year. The etiology of the struggles appear to be: 1) An increased emphasis on the passing game has resulted in an increase in the number of good defensive backs 2) two deep safety look with tight man-to-man press coverage throws off the timing of the offense & is being employed more vs. us than in the past 3) keeping AR in the pocket is being emphasized more by DCs 4) DBs appear to be able to anticipate our routes or let our receivers get ahead knowing that they are faster and can catch up 5) We have less speed at WR than in the past. 6) The NFL has cracked down on receivers blocking while the ball is still in the air, which helped YAC on simple throws in the flat. All of these factors have resulted in AR being totally out-of-sorts, pressing, and inaccurate even when receivers do get open. Not making excuses for AR, but all of these factors combined have gotten us to where we are.
Maybe McCarthy is reliant too much on some of his more basic concepts with bland formations, but if this O can't execute the basic concepts then why would he make the offense more complex? The most successful this O has been this year is that first drive against the Giants. It was successful because it was basic as hell, easy throws mixed in with runs to maximize Lacy's running style. There's no blueprint for beating this O, the O will beat themselves by not executing. The scheme or the style doesn't need to change and it doesn't need to diversify, McCarthy needs to make the break it all down to the most basic and build the offense's confidence back up. His QB needs to bust the slump and get in a rhythm, how do you get a QB back in a rhythm during a game? You give him the easy completions so he feels like he's accomplishing something.
It appears to me that many times what should be "easy completions" i.e. the first read, is not open?
I still wonder how much of this is MM's playcalling vs. what Rodgers may change at the line?
FLPACKER posted:It appears to me that many times what should be "easy completions" i.e. the first read, is not open?
Yes, yes, yes.
Either the WRs are not that good, the scheme is too simplistic or Defenses have figured it out or a combination thereof, because there are rarely guys open these days on the first read.
Hungry5 posted:Decisions.
Indecisions.
The problem is the constant "we do what we do" with the 3-1-1 aka 11 personnel. This season, when they have gone away from this - inverted bone, 5-Wide, 4-WR/TE - they've had success. The 11 personnel is allowing the defense to dictate the game, the other formations stress a defense.
The Dom Capers sucks defenses have always been about playing with a lead, and it seems so are McCarthy's offenses.
The school yard plays last year, while often in the 11 personnel sets, were with less experienced players who often broke off their schemed routes to find a spot. Rodgers was still good enough to find them in those instances, timing be damned. Of course, that is not sustainable, but going multiple in the game plan can be.
They also have at least three receivers who run crisp, precise routes and have also shown the ability to adjust to the defense in Jordy, Cobb and Abbrederis but they don't seem to be taking advantage of those skills like they have in the past.
Grave Digger posted:Maybe McCarthy is reliant too much on some of his more basic concepts with bland formations, but if this O can't execute the basic concepts then why would he make the offense more complex?
Well, I think the point is, if it isn't working, they need to try something else. Innovation is the problem, not talant.
If you watch the video of the Seahawks, you'll see on the first TD to Jones that he actually expects the ball to be thrown through an earlier window. Jones sees the first defender going to the outside, looks to Rodgers in an open window, then has to continue his run to the second window before Rodgers throws. In the vid, there are only a few times Rodgers actually throws from the pocket and they're on quick timing routes that were successful.
Many times in recent games the receivers are looking for a quicker throw on timing routes (you'll see them turn their heads to look for the ball, and then turn back as they have to extend the route), but Rodgers doesn't pull the trigger. Instead, he's going for the bomb and dancing around playing sandlot ball. MM needs to call more shorter, timing routes and Rodgers needs to trust the process and execute them.
Can we put this trust BS to bed? He's had the same recievers for yrs....if he does'nt trust them now he will never trust them.
I never thought I would parrot Donald Rumsfeld but you go to war with the army you have. Play Ball.
I wasn't blaming Rodgers' trust in his receivers, but rather his trust in the plays and getting the ball where it needs to be when it needs to be there. His receivers have inside position, look to Rodgers, and when he doesn't deliver the ball on time, everything breaks down to sandlot ball.
The blecher article chili posted a link to shows examples (1 of many others) where his first read WAS open and he saw it but did not pull the trigger.
Exactly what I said. He doesn't pull the trigger when guys are open on those timing routes. He's either going for the big bomb or he doesn't trust himself any more to make those throws.
El-Ka-Bong posted:Grave Digger posted:Maybe McCarthy is reliant too much on some of his more basic concepts with bland formations, but if this O can't execute the basic concepts then why would he make the offense more complex?
Well, I think the point is, if it isn't working, they need to try something else. Innovation is the problem, not talant.
Innovate is the new X4 buzzword when it comes to McCarthy. What does that even mean? You're right, talent is not the problem, the talent is there, the scheme works when executed. All schemes work when executed properly. The NFL is producing many new idea when it comes to offense, anything that can be done has already been done. The key is not to "innovate" or add wrinkles, key is to start with a core philosophy, hone the basics, and build off of that. McCarthy's problem is that he has a veteran group that doesn't execute the basics yet he insists on throwing in more complex schemes when really they should be honing their bread and butter concepts. Lombardi didn't run the Packer Sweep so often because it was innovative, he ran it because that was the bread and butter and they built off of that and similar plays. The defense SHOULD be able to predict he offense, but that shouldn't stop the O.
When I think of vintage Rodgers, I think of the two crucial pass completions in the Super Bowl to Jennings, one the TD pass, the other the critical 1st down conversion in their last drive. The Steelers actually defended both well. I think in both cases, the ball was in the perfect location and the defender's finger tip either barely grazed the ball or just missed it.
If I were McCarthy, I would set Rodgers down, show him those plays, tell him if the Packers schemed for such plays with the same execution we'll be fine, and finally ask him if he thinks he's up to the challenge.
For that to work, they'd need Jennings back.
Grave Digger posted:All schemes work when executed properly.
So, what happens when an offense is executed properly vs a defense that is executed properly?
after the failed 4th and 1 early in the game Sunday, I wanted MM to not let his O go for it on 4th down again in the game until they had scored a TD. let Crosby get the points until the O proved they could score a TD. but what does he do instead of having Crosby attempt a 55 yard FG with 2:15 left in 2nd?
4th and 5 at DAL 38
(2:15 - 2nd) (Shotgun) A.Rodgers pass incomplete deep left to R.Cobb
pissed me right off. that's bad coaching. make your O earn it. yes, it may be painful, but they need to get back to basics. they don't need to be handed an extra down when they're being incompetent.
Grave Digger posted:. Lombardi didn't run the Packer Sweep so often because it was innovative, he ran it because that was the bread and butter and they built off of that and similar plays. The defense SHOULD be able to predict he offense, but that shouldn't stop the O.
The Lombardi sweep was innovative. It was the running game's version of the WCO. Each block & movement was predicated on each man; 1) reading the defenders 2) reading what the other offensive players did. John Madden said that he heard Lombardi in a clinic lecture on the play for 7 hours. It was an old play, but Lombardi lent a "conceptual" approach to it that made the players adjust their movements according to how the defense played it. A lot like Bobby Knight's motion offense in basketball....simple but because it was conceptual it was innovative & complex.
michiganjoe posted:That piece really points to MM's offense as being the problem rather than AR:
This is the part that I took away.
This Packers offense and this Packers quarterback need play structures that allow Rodgers to operate with confidence in the system, as opposed to the belief, right or wrong, that without his super-human efforts, the offense is as good as dead.
Regardless of whatever you think the issue is or who is more "to blame", as a head coach, you must make changes (or to use a scary word - innovate) in order to deal with a situation that isn't working. That's what good leaders do.
Or, I guess, you know, just keep doing the same thing and hope everyone just starts executing better even though you have more than a full season's play that indicates that stubborn stance isn't producing different results.
Grave Digger posted:All schemes work when executed properly.
Ummm, no. Obviously no.
Hungry5 posted:For that to work, they'd need Jennings back.
I appreciate my example is extreme, what with the level of accuracy required for those plays to work.
But, the plays are examples of simple post patterns where what is needed is successful execution. Crisp route running, in the pocket drop back and doing the proper reads, and followed by an accurate pass to the most available target.
Hungry5, if you are right, the Pack is screwed. If I understand things correctly, if you are right, the Packers lack the personnel to run the basic WCO offense and must keep resorting to its sandlot play (Rodgers buying time by releasing from the pocket, etc.).
phaedrus posted:If I were McCarthy, I would set Rodgers down, show him those plays,
Why those plays, from your description? Why not show him methodical, boring, grind-it-out scoring drives one-after-another showing him he doesn't need to only make insane throws?
The 16-play one from the Giants game would be a good place to start.
We've finally reached the pinnacle of how to fix things. The coach needs to sit down with the player and get things squares away.
Might as well be the baseball board
Yeah, like that first drive of the Giants game. Loved that. eight minutes off the clock.
CAPackFan95 posted:Grave Digger posted:All schemes work when executed properly.
So, what happens when an offense is executed properly vs a defense that is executed properly?
Each subsequent play gets the offense half the distance to the goal
It wasn't the 16 plays on the 1st Giants drive that I liked, it was the formations/personnel used.
FLPACKER posted:The Lombardi sweep was innovative. It was the running game's version of the WCO. Each block & movement was predicated on each man; 1) reading the defenders 2) reading what the other offensive players did. John Madden said that he heard Lombardi in a clinic lecture on the play for 7 hours. It was an old play, but Lombardi lent a "conceptual" approach to it that made the players adjust their movements according to how the defense played it. A lot like Bobby Knight's motion offense in basketball....simple but because it was conceptual it was innovative & complex.
You miss my point, I didn't say it was not an innovative play, I'm talking about Lombardi's philosophy. Innovation is not a philosophy. He ran the play as often as he did because it was part of the foundation of the offense, it was part the core of their scheme identity and it was a tone setting play. Every offense needs a core set of plays to build off of, whether they're pass plays or run plays or whatever. You always hear announcers say "this play is a staple of this offense"...zone run schemes run a basic inside zone and a basic outside zone run, that's the foundation of the scheme and those runs set up all other runs. WCO has routes that are core to the system that every receiver needs to master. McCarthy's offense doesn't seem to have the basics down, they don't have an identity or a bread and butter play they consistently run well. He needs to call a simpler game and make sure they can execute the basics of the scheme.
El-Ka-Bong posted:Ummm, no. Obviously no.
Oh they do. Trust me. They all can work.
Grave Digger posted:FLPACKER posted:The Lombardi sweep was innovative. It was the running game's version of the WCO. Each block & movement was predicated on each man; 1) reading the defenders 2) reading what the other offensive players did. John Madden said that he heard Lombardi in a clinic lecture on the play for 7 hours. It was an old play, but Lombardi lent a "conceptual" approach to it that made the players adjust their movements according to how the defense played it. A lot like Bobby Knight's motion offense in basketball....simple but because it was conceptual it was innovative & complex.
You miss my point, I didn't say it was not an innovative play, I'm talking about Lombardi's philosophy. Innovation is not a philosophy. He ran the play as often as he did because it was part of the foundation of the offense, it was part the core of their scheme identity and it was a tone setting play. Every offense needs a core set of plays to build off of, whether they're pass plays or run plays or whatever. You always hear announcers say "this play is a staple of this offense"...zone run schemes run a basic inside zone and a basic outside zone run, that's the foundation of the scheme and those runs set up all other runs. WCO has routes that are core to the system that every receiver needs to master. McCarthy's offense doesn't seem to have the basics down, they don't have an identity or a bread and butter play they consistently run well. He needs to call a simpler game and make sure they can execute the basics of the scheme.
Thanks for clarifying, makes sense, and yes every scheme works IF; 1) The players are physically able to carry out the scheme 2) The players are mentally able to carry out the scheme
Hungry5 posted:It wasn't the 16 plays on the 1st Giants drive that I liked, it was the formations/personnel used.
1-10-GB 25 (15:00) A.Rodgers pass short left to R.Cobb to GB 31 for 6 yards (L.Hall). 11 personnel (TE in 3pt on the line)
2-4-GB 31 (14:17) J.Spriggs reported in as eligible. E.Lacy left tackle to GB 34 for 3 yards (D.Kennard). Inverted bone
3-1-GB 34 (13:40) A.Ripkowski right guard to GB 38 for 4 yards (J.Casillas, K.Sheppard). 2 TE
1-10-GB 38 (12:56) E.Lacy right end to GB 42 for 4 yards (J.Hankins; J.Bromley). 3WR, RB, FB
2-6-GB 42 (12:16) A.Rodgers pass incomplete deep left to J.Nelson. 2WR, 2TE, RB
3-6-GB 42 (12:09) (Shotgun) A.Rodgers pass short middle to R.Cobb to NYG 49 for 9 yards (K.Robinson). 11 personnel - Cobb short crosser with RichRod slightly deeper pulled the S help away form Cobb. RR was split out
1-10-NYG 49 (11:33) T.Montgomery right end to NYG 48 for 1 yard (J.Pierre-Paul). 3WR, TE, Monty in the backfield
2-9-NYG 48 (10:52) PENALTY on NYG-J.Hankins, Encroachment, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 48 - No Play.
2-4-NYG 43 (10:25) R.Cobb right guard to NYG 43 for no gain (L.Collins). 2WR, TE, FB, Cobb in the backfield
3-4-NYG 43 (9:48) (Shotgun) A.Rodgers pass short left to J.Nelson to NYG 36 for 7 yards (A.Adams; L.Hall). 11 personnel - RichRod outside of Nelson in the slot.
1-10-NYG 36 (9:13) (No Huddle) E.Lacy right end to NYG 34 for 2 yards (J.Pierre-Paul). 11 personnel, RichRod started wide and came in motion
2-8-NYG 34 (8:36) A.Rodgers pass short left to R.Cobb to NYG 17 for 17 yards (L.Hall). 3WR, FB, RB
1-10-NYG 17 (7:48) (Shotgun) A.Rodgers pass incomplete short left to D.Adams. 11 personnel, Lacy split out wide
2-10-NYG 17 (7:45) (Shotgun) A.Rodgers pass incomplete deep middle to R.Rodgers (K.Robinson). 11 personnel (TE in 3pt on the line)
3-10-NYG 17 (7:40) (Shotgun) A.Rodgers scrambles left end ran ob at NYG 6 for 11 yards (L.Collins). 11 personnel, RichRod split out
1-6-NYG 6 (7:03) E.Lacy left guard to NYG 2 for 4 yards (J.Pierre-Paul, A.Adams). 11 personnel (TE in 3pt on the line)
2-2-NYG 2 (6:23) (Shotgun) A.Rodgers pass short right to J.Nelson for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN. 11 personnel, RichRod in the backfield, Cobb motions into the backfield – sure looked like a run
