JPP was a first team All Pro his second year. Had 16 1/2 sacks. I mean, I get the comparisons but Gary would have to have a historic second half of the season to come close.
Holy shit, dude. Read past the first sentence before hitting the reply button.
Kechman likens Gary at this point is his career to Datone Jones at a similar point.
Some one needs to lock him up on July 4th.
So not a very good first round pick?
He made a play today that meant something!
Throw in Josh Jackson made a nice block on the INT and they both get two weeks of goodwill
I'm happy for Gary.
He really showed a powerful bull rush on that final series. Good things ahead especially if Pettine starts rushing Z, Preston, Gary & KC all at the same time including once he gets Jaire & King back.....could be special down the stretch.
I think we all want to see Gary realize his potential. Seems like a great kid who works his ass off. Hopefully this catapults him forward.
I agree with others that say he needs to be dipping in Preston Smith's snaps.
I'd imagine Gary would be on the field more often if Gary showed he should be on the field more often.
I'd imagine the guy determining who should be on the field and who shouldn't be on the field is in question.
@Boris posted:I'm happy for Gary.
He really showed a powerful bull rush on that final series. Good things ahead especially if Pettine starts rushing Z, Preston, Gary & KC all at the same time including once he gets Jaire & King back.....could be special down the stretch.
I'll have what @Boris is smoking.
Flashes but no consistent fire.
@PackLandVA posted:I'd imagine Gary would be on the field more often if Gary showed he should be on the field more often.
The old AJ Hawk argument. Been a while since weâve seen that on this board.
The thing that's really starting to bother me about the whole Love/Gary potential/raw/years to develop crap is Gunt signaling he doesn't know WTF he's doing. This whole "win now AND build for the future" isn't something most GMs can pull off let alone a rookie GM.
I don't doubt Gary could shift it into gear next year but again it just seems Goof is wasting time. Seriously, if you aren't serious about winning now then don't pay Rodgers and Bak monster contracts and turn it all into a shit ton of high picks.
If he's going to continue this half in half out approach he's going to get the same results as if he just scrapped the team for a rebuild. What he's doing right now is worse. Pretty much guaranteeing no realistic shot at a SuperBowl while relegating the Packers to the end of the draft. Honestly, the more I think about it the more it seems like that Love pick along with drafting guys you have to develop for 4 fucking years may have completely scrapped the rest of Rodgers tenure.
@BrainDed posted:The old AJ Hawk argument. Been a while since weâve seen that on this board.
Gary isn't producing and could be a bust, but now that someone makes the argument that if he deserved to start that he would be starting and that's akin to the AJ Hawk argument? I can't track that logic. Gary should be starting if he's clearly better than PSmith or ZSmith, right now he's not. There's no indication right now they're holding back a dominant talent for no reason, as was the implication during the AJ Hawk years.
To be fair that opposite side of that was that Brad Jones, Jamari Lattimore, DJ Smith, etc. needed to be seeing the field more in his place. Turns out everyone was wrong, but shockingly AJ Hawk was the best option we had. The flip side is also the old Jeff Janis/Jared Abbredaris argument.
I lost track of where this was going with that last sentence. And that's OK.
@Henry posted:The thing that's really starting to bother me about the whole Love/Gary potential/raw/years to develop crap is Gunt signaling he doesn't know WTF he's doing. This whole "win now AND build for the future" isn't something most GMs can pull off let alone a rookie GM.
I don't doubt Gary could shift it into gear next year but again it just seems Goof is wasting time. Seriously, if you aren't serious about winning now then don't pay Rodgers and Bak monster contracts and turn it all into a shit ton of high picks.
If he's going to continue this half in half out approach he's going to get the same results as if he just scrapped the team for a rebuild. What he's doing right now is worse. Pretty much guaranteeing no realistic shot at a SuperBowl while relegating the Packers to the end of the draft. Honestly, the more I think about it the more it seems like that Love pick along with drafting guys you have to develop for 4 fucking years may have completely scrapped the rest of Rodgers tenure.
I agree but with the added understanding that a elite LT will greatly increase the chances for Love to have early success. In other words, signing Bahk could be part of the rebuild plan.
@Grave Digger posted:Gary isn't producing and could be a bust, but now that someone makes the argument that if he deserved to start that he would be starting and that's akin to the AJ Hawk argument? I can't track that logic. Gary should be starting if he's clearly better than PSmith or ZSmith, right now he's not. There's no indication right now they're holding back a dominant talent for no reason, as was the implication during the AJ Hawk years.
To be fair that opposite side of that was that Brad Jones, Jamari Lattimore, DJ Smith, etc. needed to be seeing the field more in his place. Turns out everyone was wrong, but shockingly AJ Hawk was the best option we had. The flip side is also the old Jeff Janis/Jared Abbredaris argument.
"I can't track that logic."
I don't expect you to as this has always been your argument. The "the coaches know best so stop questioning their personnel choices" argument.
Sometimes they are wrong and the above argument is a lazy argument.
NFCCG last year.
Current #1 seed in the NFC.
And extending Bakhtiari could be part of the rebuild plan?
I could see Rodgers as the starter throughout the Bakhtiari extension.
That's not the issue. You have Rodgers and Bak and the team is winning but it's damn near a certainty of getting bounced in the playoffs as soon as they meet up against a team with a reliable defense and running game.
Maybe Lazard coming back will blow the roof off the offense, not that it's horrible right now but it's stoppable. Considering the massive hole in the middle of the defense they better be able to score at will on any opponent. I don't see that as a winning playoff strategy. They absolutely can keep doing the same thing until the end of Rodgers career and probably will make it to the playoffs several times but I sure don't see a Super Bowl win in that formula.
Pick a lane. Rodgers pick had multiple solid reasons behind it. Love's doesn't.
I donât know what to make of Gary at this point. Looks like GB doesnât either.
I do know that Randall, Rollins, Jackson, King & Gary is a LOT of draft equity over a 5 year period to land on âwe might have been wrong on all of themâ
@Henry posted:Honestly, the more I think about it the more it seems like that Love pick along with drafting guys you have to develop for 4 fucking years may have completely scrapped the rest of Rodgers tenure.
I keep seeing this here and not following. Obviously the Love pick was developmental, but the picks after that have been no more "developmental" than any other draft picks would have been. Arguably less so.
Dillon (2nd) and Deguara (3rd) both got the ball multiple times during the first half of Week 1. You don't give rookie projects the football.
No way of knowing on DeGuara because of the injury, but rounds 2-5 are all playing this year. Dillon would have started when Jones and Williams went down, but couldn't because he was on the Covid list. Given the way RB's get injured, that is not a 4 year pick, and we will likely be seeing a lot more of him with the cold weather.
Kamal Martin (4th) has the starting job. Runyan (5th) has plugged and played well when called on. Those aren't projects either.
Everyone keeps saying they were drafting for 4 years down the road, but I don't think they saw it that way at all. You can fault the selections themselves--(which I do on Rd 1as I wanted Patrick Queen), but I don't think the rest of the 2020 draft was a re-build in their eyes. If anything it was the opposite: They saw it as finishing touches after a 13-3 season.
i would be fine with the Packers playing on the road for the playoffs especially if there are no fans. Lambeu in January would not be a big advantage for the Packers.
@BrainDed posted:"I can't track that logic."
I don't expect you to as this has always been your argument. The "the coaches know best so stop questioning their personnel choices" argument.
Sometimes they are wrong and the above argument is a lazy argument.
Well that was never the argument. The argument was always that Hawk probably was the best ILB we had and if the others were any good then they would be playing. It was that they all sucked. This idea that MAYBE THEYRE JUST GAMERS! is a fantasy. DJ Smith would either be a HOFer or a scrub, but we won't know until he plays is not how it works. Also stop pretending you know as much as coaches or personnel guys who watch these guys every day, I didn't even say that and it may be a lazy or convenient internet argument to say, but that doesn't make it untrue. They're certainly not always right, but very rarely do guys just get ignored who are capable of actually playing. It's why there are a lot more Jeff Janis's and Ruvell Martins currently selling insurance than there are Gilbert Browns or Taysom Hills who found roles after being overlooked. Guys who earn PT tend to get it, it's why we've had guys like Tramon Williams, Donald Driver, Allen Lazard, etc. play key roles after being overlooked in the draft or by other teams.
Rashan Gary isn't playing because he isn't better than P or Z Smith. They're not being stubborn or making a mistake, it's just reality. Also AJ Hawk was the best option even though he also sucked.
@Grave Digger posted:Rashan Gary isn't playing because he isn't better than P or Z Smith. They're not being stubborn or making a mistake, it's just reality.
He is when they are tired.
That sack yesterday at the end of the game was huge. That's his role going forward, and it's not a small one. Gotta rotate fresh legs.
"Also stop pretending you know as much as coaches or personnel guys "
I'm not pretending that I know more than the coaches. What I am saying is that it's possible, even probable with this regime, that they are wrong. From what I've seen, I believe Barnes and Martin are better than Kirksey. Yet, as soon as Kirksey is healthy he gets PT over them. Why? Do you think Kirksey has played better than both of them?
Same applies to Gary and P. Smith. Preston has sucked this year. Not just dwindling sack numbers, his run D has been bad. So much so that even the commentators who don't watch every game are starting to comment on it. Why not let the #12 overall pick have more chances? We are not talking about a UFA here, we are talking about the #12 overall pick in his 2nd season. Some here defended the pick by saying he does all the dirt to allow others to make plays. Well, we need some plays made, so put him in the fucking game.
I think coaches tend to favor the experience too much.
@BrainDed posted:"Also stop pretending you know as much as coaches or personnel guys "
I'm not pretending that I know more than the coaches. What I am saying is that it's possible, even probable with this regime, that they are wrong. From what I've seen, I believe Barnes and Martin are better than Kirksey. Yet, as soon as Kirksey is healthy he gets PT over them. Why? Do you think Kirksey has played better than both of them?
Same applies to Gary and P. Smith. Preston has sucked this year. Not just dwindling sack numbers, his run D has been bad. So much so that even the commentators who don't watch every game are starting to comment on it. Why not let the #12 overall pick have more chances? We are not talking about a UFA here, we are talking about the #12 overall pick in his 2nd season. Some here defended the pick by saying he does all the dirt to allow others to make plays. Well, we need some plays made, so put him in the fucking game.I think coaches tend to favor the experience too much.
Yeah, I think Kirksey stinks too...
Maybe Rashaun Gary is a gifted athlete but dumber than a box of rocks like Jeff Janis? I mean, at this level everyone has athletic ability. Elite level physical skills. Some are more elite than others.
I donât know the answer why Gary hasnât made more plays. But Iâm pretty sure the coaches arenât playing Preston Smith due to some type of seniority based system.
The reality is for what they spent on Smith and how high of a draft pick they spent on Gary they need both guys to play at a high level. Like more of what you saw on the Jags last two drives. If they can, this could be a very good D on the front end. And a good DL and pass rushers can hide a lot of inexperience and lack of talent on the back end.
I was encouraged yesterday because those two stepped up when the game was on the line. Same with Amos. All three had been MIA for most of the season.
What concerns me is the tackling and questionable effort from some of the guys. I mean, itâs one thing to just simply get beat. Itâs another to show poor or lazy technique. I saw a lot of that yesterday. Jacksonville wanted it more on D. You saw it - their hitting and tackling and pursuit. Our guys played slow and tentative and honestly were going through the motions until the very end.
Back in 2019:
Dont worry about those who hate, they are miserable for a reason. Keep your dreams in front of you and the clowns behind you! #RashanGary pic.twitter.com/prZkzGrNan
â Chris Partridge (@CoachCPartridge) April 23, 2019
@Pistol GB posted:I keep seeing this here and not following. Obviously the Love pick was developmental, but the picks after that have been no more "developmental" than any other draft picks would have been. Arguably less so.
Dillon (2nd) and Deguara (3rd) both got the ball multiple times during the first half of Week 1. You don't give rookie projects the football.
No way of knowing on DeGuara because of the injury, but rounds 2-5 are all playing this year. Dillon would have started when Jones and Williams went down, but couldn't because he was on the Covid list. Given the way RB's get injured, that is not a 4 year pick, and we will likely be seeing a lot more of him with the cold weather.
Kamal Martin (4th) has the starting job. Runyan (5th) has plugged and played well when called on. Those aren't projects either.
Everyone keeps saying they were drafting for 4 years down the road, but I don't think they saw it that way at all. You can fault the selections themselves--(which I do on Rd 1as I wanted Patrick Queen), but I don't think the rest of the 2020 draft was a re-build in their eyes. If anything it was the opposite: They saw it as finishing touches after a 13-3 season.
We're talking about Gary and Love. Dillon and ldjhraophjpghpaoigjh are two guys that did zero to fill massive holes while burning a 4th rounder.
Saying Martin has a starting job as an ILB on this team is not a ringing endorsement. That position as a whole is horrible. Martin could turn into a solid player but he's still only one guy and it was a flyer pick with his injury history.
Runyan, Martin, Dillon and flhgpiojbhpaojgh, nobody in the 4th aren't going to win you Super Bowl if you're trying to win now. Gump could've taken a DT or WR or even DB well into the 3rd and found solid value. It's not saying dlhagojbha9pubgih and Dillon won't be productive but it was hardly pressing to draft a TE and RB with those picks in the short term. If Gerp was so enamoured with his first 3 picks that he just HAD to have them like it's being suggested with Love, well, we got trouble.
@Floridarob posted:i would be fine with the Packers playing on the road for the playoffs especially if there are no fans. Lambeu in January would not be a big advantage for the Packers.
Nope, the only advantage this year is getting the #1 seed and a bye. Weather could be a factor but I expect there will be some kind of bubble situation for the playoffs anyway so it's going to be a neutral location.
@Tschmack posted:Maybe Rashaun Gary is a gifted athlete but dumber than a box of rocks like Jeff Janis? I mean, at this level everyone has athletic ability. Elite level physical skills. Some are more elite than others.
I donât know the answer why Gary hasnât made more plays. But Iâm pretty sure the coaches arenât playing Preston Smith due to some type of seniority based system.
The reality is for what they spent on Smith and how high of a draft pick they spent on Gary they need both guys to play at a high level. Like more of what you saw on the Jags last two drives. If they can, this could be a very good D on the front end. And a good DL and pass rushers can hide a lot of inexperience and lack of talent on the back end.
I was encouraged yesterday because those two stepped up when the game was on the line. Same with Amos. All three had been MIA for most of the season.
What concerns me is the tackling and questionable effort from some of the guys. I mean, itâs one thing to just simply get beat. Itâs another to show poor or lazy technique. I saw a lot of that yesterday. Jacksonville wanted it more on D. You saw it - their hitting and tackling and pursuit. Our guys played slow and tentative and honestly were going through the motions until the very end.
Part of it was that they were playing a bunch of guys that were really vulnerable in the secondary. When you are playing Josh Jackson, a 6th round pick (Hollman), and an UDFA (Sullivan) as your CBs it makes the defensive game plan more conservative. They need Alexander back badly against the Colts, because those guys will get eaten alive by P. Rivers in a dome.
| Name | Snaps | % | |
| Sullivan | 64 | 100 | |
| Amos | 64 | 100 | |
| Savage | 61 | 95 | |
| Jackson | 60 | 94 | |
| Hollman | 51 | 80 | |
| Greene | 39 | 61 | |
| Scott | 1 | 2 |
Coaches go with the best option they have because they know they only get a few season to get it right. There are a lot more factors that go into playing time beyond just seniority or pay scale. Kirksey and PSmith likely ARE our best option at their position even though we've seen flashes of Martin, Barnes, and Gary play better. No one is arguing those guys haven't played well, but when Kirko and Smith are ON, they're very good and give us the best chance of winning. It's the same reason they didn't cut Davante Adams and Mason Crosby during years where they struggled, it's not a talent or attitude issue, it may just a rut. The PSmith issue seems like something we're going to hear about at the end of the year that he had a nagging injury he's been dealing with. Players not named Clete Hunt don't just go from dominant to mediocre after a year without some kind of outside factor.
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@PackerHawk posted:Nope, the only advantage this year is getting the #1 seed and a bye. Weather could be a factor but I expect there will be some kind of bubble situation for the playoffs anyway so it's going to be a neutral location.
I already tried making this argument a couple weeks ago but was met with great opposition.
The issue with the D is the same as it has been for 20 years save a couple. They're not physical. They don't swarm to the ball, they don't gang tackle/hit the ball carrier or minimize YAC with receivers and they have issues stopping the run in general. It's harder to see it when the offense is lighting it up but it comes into stark view when you see their opponent's D doing most of those things right.
They're 7-2 so they've been "good enough" but that won't cut it when they play teams with a stout D that limits our points.
@DH13 posted:I already tried making this argument a couple weeks ago but was met with great opposition.
The issue with the D is the same as it has been for 20 years save a couple. They're not physical. They don't swarm to the ball, they don't gang tackle/hit the ball carrier or minimize YAC with receivers and they have issues stopping the run in general. It's harder to see it when the offense is lighting it up but it comes into stark view when you see their opponent's D doing most of those things right.
They're 7-2 so they've been "good enough" but that won't cut it when they play teams with a stout D that limits our points.
Yeah, you saw the Niners swarming and the Rams yesterday too. We don't have that, which seems to be on the coaching.
