Ubetcha posted:Tschmack posted:
The concern on Gary is if he can get motivated and fired up to play.
A valid concern
Why? Why is this a valid concern? This seems like a brand new narrative that has been created the last 24 hours. You can fail to fill up a stat sheet and still be a hard working mofo.
I'm gonna start my own thing out of thin air. Dude's second toe is longer than his big toe. After hand size, this is probably the biggest indicator of if a guy will succeed.
A couple things from guys who watched every one of his career snaps:
1) He had much more success vs. guards than tackles
2) Mainly because he had one pass rush move....the bull rush
Was it maturity, coaching , or his wonderlic score of 9 that was to blame for a lack of refinement to his skill set? Time will tell. The last two guys we drafted whose college production was below their physical abilities were Josh Jones & Jason Spriggs.
I don't think Spriggs college production was below his abilities, I think his NFL production is...
Stats never tell the whole story...I remember that one guy who scored 4 TDs in a single high school game...never made it to college much less the pros.
Al Bundy went on to a successful sales career however.
El-Ka-Bong posted:Ubetcha posted:Tschmack posted:
The concern on Gary is if he can get motivated and fired up to play.
A valid concern
Why? Why is this a valid concern? This seems like a brand new narrative that has been created the last 24 hours. You can fail to fill up a stat sheet and still be a hard working mofo.
I'm gonna start my own thing out of thin air. Dude's second toe is longer than his big toe. After hand size, this is probably the biggest indicator of if a guy will succeed.
What? You wouldn't want to know that a prospect is self-motivated and brings his best in every game? Not really wanting to play a semantics game here. Feel free to carry on with your big toe theory though.
Well, the one-handed bull rush he showed on the one play is certainly not going to cut it in the NFL -- someone will snap off his arm. And yes, he needs more than just a bull rush. But, as I said on another post, maybe he just didn't have to develop any other part of his game because his talent was greater than his opponents' talent. I wonder what his coaches at UM did? Did they try to teach him other moves but he just was too Wonderlic-low to get it? Or, did they just turn him loose and say, "Sic 'em"? It seems to me that at a major program like UM, there's always someone else to plug in; so, he was either so head-and-tails above everyone else that no one could oust him from the lineup or his shoulder prevented him from making other moves such as a swim move or rip?
I guess we'll find out pretty soon...
Fandame posted:Well, the one-handed bull rush he showed on the one play is certainly not going to cut it in the NFL -- someone will snap off his arm. And yes, he needs more than just a bull rush. But, as I said on another post, maybe he just didn't have to develop any other part of his game because his talent was greater than his opponents' talent. I wonder what his coaches at UM did? Did they try to teach him other moves but he just was too Wonderlic-low to get it? Or, did they just turn him loose and say, "Sic 'em"? It seems to me that at a major program like UM, there's always someone else to plug in; so, he was either so head-and-tails above everyone else that no one could oust him from the lineup or his shoulder prevented him from making other moves such as a swim move or rip?
I guess we'll find out pretty soon...
Serious question, did Nick Perry ever develop anything other than a bull rush?
Not saying you'd be satisfied if Gary turns out like Perry, but I never really thought Perry did anything but bull rush during his 7 seasons as a Packer.
EC Pack posted:I don't think Spriggs college production was below his abilities, I think his NFL production is...
Nope, this from his draft profile;
He’ll be one of the best physical specimen’s to come out of the combine since Lane Johnson, but Spriggs is still more projection than finished project at this point. There is a lot to like in his game though, and there may not be a better frame to work with in the draft. If he can clean up some technical issues he’ll be an above average tackle.
There is some player analysis (neutral source) on the twit pointing out the narrative of his effort being up and down as BS. You don't develop into the physical/athletic specimen he is without dedication. The film they studied showed no instances of taking plays off. The same person admitted he did not know how MU was trying to use him in their D, whether he was supposed to keep Bush and Winovich clean or if he was supposed to rush.
And he has documented his struggles with dyslexia. Had a 3.8gpa in HS and I think twice all academic in college.
He still could surely bust but let's at least get some of this stuff straight before we all collectively decide.
I don't read that as he didn't play up to his abilities, just that he has to clean up technical issues. IMO.
Which, unfortunately, he hasn't done.....
Really don't recall any motivational issues being raised when he was at Michigan (unlike Jerel Worthy at MSU).
Ubetcha posted:El-Ka-Bong posted:Ubetcha posted:Tschmack posted:The concern on Gary is if he can get motivated and fired up to play.
A valid concern
Why? Why is this a valid concern?
What? You wouldn't want to know that a prospect is self-motivated and brings his best in every game? Not really wanting to play a semantics game here. Feel free to carry on with your big toe theory though.
Give me one valid reason to suspect he is not self motivated or does not bring his best to every game?
That is my point, you can't. It seems to be an "out of thin air" narrative X4 now clings to. It is possible you can play your ass off and not get good results. Gary did not have the results you would have expected, but it does not seem, by any valid concern, that his lack of results were due to lack of effort, motivation or BFI.
heyward posted:Every dopey Packers "expert"/fan will be justifying this pick so hard that by the end of today most of you will have Gary heading to the Hall of Fame.
If I'm not mistaken, this Uglem guy is the same genius who had Harold Landry and Josh Jackson as top-5 players last year. I only remember because it was so ridiculous.
What's wrong with Landry & Jackson? So they're not top 5, they're good, young players with bright futures. At least IMO.
EC Pack posted:I don't read that as he didn't play up to his abilities, just that he has to clean up technical issues. IMO.
Which, unfortunately, he hasn't done.....
Come on, they beam that Spriggs has elite physical abilities but he never made First Team all Big 10. The kid was drafted as high as he was based on potential. That is what scares me about Gary
Someone who got the pick right with some interesting analysis.
The one word red flag most are kvetching about is "raw". He is a very athletic D player without a developed repertoire of moves. He's also 21. Some have pointed out he is much like Clark was when he was drafted. Loads of raw talent but hasn't matured as a player yet. Will he turn into Clark 2.0? Maybe not. Datone Jones, maybe not. But that's probably where we all need to start in assessing where he might or might not go.
El-Ka-Bong posted:Ubetcha posted:El-Ka-Bong posted:Ubetcha posted:Tschmack posted:The concern on Gary is if he can get motivated and fired up to play.
A valid concern
Why? Why is this a valid concern?
What? You wouldn't want to know that a prospect is self-motivated and brings his best in every game? Not really wanting to play a semantics game here. Feel free to carry on with your big toe theory though.
Give me one valid reason to suspect he is not self motivated or does not bring his best to every game?
That is my point, you can't. It seems to be an "out of thin air" narrative X4 now clings to. It is possible you can play your ass off and not get good results. Gary did not have the results you would have expected, but it does not seem, by any valid concern, that his lack of results were due to lack of effort, motivation or BFI.
Not saying his motivation is suspect. Just saying that if it were, it would seem that the team considering him would likely get the question answered early in the process. That and, of course, the size of his big toe and any other appendages that might be relative. I'll have to assume the Packers did that and be happy with it. I disagree that anybody is "clinging" to the idea that any motivation issue exists, but just bringing up some of the crap that gets distributed and repeated without any real merit to it. As you say, "out of thin air".
DH13 posted:Keil coined new lexicon after that pick. Stupid Oackers!
Duh, duh.... duh-duh-duh-duh... Go Oack Go!
Hungry5 posted:BrainDed posted:I don't want potential at 12, I want production. Potential is for late 1 or early 2.
Every college player is potential going into the NFL.
Yep, tons of "productive" college players have flamed out in the NFL. The only production that counts now is what they do going forward. They are all starting out as 0.
"Go Oack Go! "
Is that a dipthong?
Maynard posted:Stats never tell the whole story...I remember that one guy who scored 4 TDs in a single high school game...never made it to college much less the pros.
This always rankles me...STATS always tell the whole story.
Just read and interpret the right STATS.
It's always there.
With Gary Rashan / Rashan Gary...it's the double and triple teams...THATS's the STAT ! But of course...they don't have a STAT for that. Takes observation and a discerning eye for talant.
Makes all the other STATS....MOOT.
But no...dumbazzes think it's only about sacks and stuff.
Everybody is a GM today...
Henry posted:heyward posted:Every dopey Packers "expert"/fan will be justifying this pick so hard that by the end of today most of you will have Gary heading to the Hall of Fame.
If I'm not mistaken, this Uglem guy is the same genius who had Harold Landry and Josh Jackson as top-5 players last year. I only remember because it was so ridiculous.
He’s a HOFer by September for me. I’m being cautious.
You dopey Packer fan
I like it, talented athlete that can do more than just rush the passer. A little coaching and some motivation and I think the he's going to prove the majority of you wrong.
What other reason or reasons would explain his lack of performance? Or consistent performance? Injuries? Perhaps. He did have a shoulder issue this past year. Off the field issues or distractions? Maybe, although that’s not on his bio. Poor technique? I guess. Lack of experience? Probably not. It’s not like he only played one season.
Unlike many professions, you can assess and gather a lot of intel on watching players practice and play. You know when someone is going full speed or when they are loafing. You also have a pretty good idea how players learn and develop. From plays to schemes and their levels of adaptability.
He has the physical ability to be an absolute stud. But it’s absolutely relevant to ask why his talent hasn’t come close to matching his production. Is it skill or will? He obviously put on a show at the combine to maximize his position and financial potential and it worked as he got selected 12th.
There are two specific things I worry about with him- 1) how will he respond given the financial windfall and 2) how will he play against better competition? In the NFL even the best athletes don’t succeed if they don’t outwork and outhustle their opponents. He didn’t always show that at Michigan despite being arguably the most physically gifted player on the field every time he played.
Time will tell - I hope he proves me and others wrong. If he doesn’t he won’t be the first or last hyped athlete to flame out at this level.
Tschmack posted:What other reason or reasons would explain his lack of performance?
Injury
Bad instincts
Bad technique
Mediocre coaching
Lack of football smarts
Slow reaction
Giant second toe
The world is full of amazing physical specimens who cannot play a professional sport because.... these sports are hard. Still named by his teammates the best linebacker on the team in 2017, first round draft pick, etc. Unmotivated doesn't seem to resonate.
Ubetcha posted:Tschmack posted:
The concern on Gary is if he can get motivated and fired up to play.
A valid concern
Ubetcha posted:Not saying his motivation is suspect.
El-Ka-Bong posted:Tschmack posted:What other reason or reasons would explain his lack of performance?
Injury
Bad instincts
Bad technique
Mediocre coaching
Lack of football smarts
Slow reaction
Giant second toe
The world is full of amazing physical specimens who cannot play a professional sport because.... these sports are hard. Still named by his teammates the best linebacker on the team in 2017, first round draft pick, etc. Unmotivated doesn't seem to resonate.
Maybe with that GPA he was in the library studying for class?
Welcome back, Dr. Mr. Boy! 
Playing sports is hard. No question about it. But it’s made a lot easier when you win the generic lottery. That’s Gary.
If he takes to better coaching (assuming he didn’t get that at UM), and doesn’t get hurt (no guarantees there) why else can’t he succeed?
I hope it all translates but I’m also not going to sit here and invent reasons or rationalize why he shouldn’t make it despite his talents. Dude needs to show he’s worth the 12th pick. On paper he’s more than worthy. Invest in the program and take full advantage of the opportunity he’s been given.
He can probably be ready for the playoffs if he has the toe surgery now.
Tschmack posted:Playing sports is hard. No question about it. But it’s made a lot easier when you win the generic lottery. That’s Gary.
If he takes to better coaching (assuming he didn’t get that at UM), and doesn’t get hurt (no guarantees there) why else can’t he succeed?
I hope it all translates but I’m also not going to sit here and invent reasons or rationalize why he shouldn’t make it despite his talents. Dude needs to show he’s worth the 12th pick. On paper he’s more than worthy. Invest in the program and take full advantage of the opportunity he’s been given.
No doubt about it. Rashan Gary has tremendous generics.
Rashan's already picked up an endorsemeant deal with Carbonated Beverage Inc. Impressive.
i am no gm. i watched 3 different michigan games today (had some time) he destroyed every te they put on him, but he doesn't do too well on tackles and is average on guards. one thing i noticed was he may have crazy speed in the 40, but he consistently go outrun - by haskins on the one play. and he doesn't appear to have a full go motor, or play with 'his hair on fire' - he missed a half a dozen tackles and usually chased the play down rather than making it...just my observations. he did way better in 17, with the dude who's in oakland now - so maybe with a better cast around him, he can excel. I also noticed that they did NOT double team him, but when a TE was not assigned, he was chipping gary into the g or t...for me the pick was still in left field, but if we can land a good t/g in the 2nd round, i don't care where we picked gary, it would be a better 'group' over the 'individual' pick.
oldschool posted:Maynard posted:Stats never tell the whole story...I remember that one guy who scored 4 TDs in a single high school game...never made it to college much less the pros.
This always rankles me...STATS always tell the whole story.
Just read and interpret the right STATS.
It's always there.
With Gary Rashan / Rashan Gary...it's the double and triple teams...THATS's the STAT ! But of course...they don't have a STAT for that. Takes observation and a discerning eye for talant.
Makes all the other STATS....MOOT.
But no...dumbazzes think it's only about sacks and stuff.
Everybody is a GM today...
Yeah, teams always scheme double and triple teams on players they find to "lack production."
Rusty posted:Rashan's already picked up an endorsemeant deal with Carbonated Beverage Inc. Impressive.
I hear he's the national spokesperson for vanilla.
Vanillaface Gary.
If Rashan Gary was a spice . . . he'd be flour.
michiganjoe posted:From Packer Report:
Quick note on Gary's sack totals. In college, Danielle Hunter had 4.5 in 3 years. He has 34 the past 3 years with Vikings.
Clay Matthews had 4.5 for USC and was considered the fourth best LB there.
El-Ka-Bong posted:Ubetcha posted:Tschmack posted:
The concern on Gary is if he can get motivated and fired up to play.
A valid concern
Ubetcha posted:Not saying his motivation is suspect.
Now that's just creepy.
Its like giving yourself the middle finger every time you clip your toenails
Didn’t like the pick yesterday and don’t like it any better today. But I’m just a fan.
I’ll trust Gutey &Co until there’s a reason not to. Hope he ends of in the Packer HoF. Time will tell.
