OK Genius, here are the college stats:   ESB  Notre Dame  24 games 92 REC.  1484 yards  16.1 AVE.  13 TD.      ASB  USC   30 games  178 REC  2270 yards 12.8 AVE  16 TD.   OK, now show me where you, Gutey, and every other NFL GM  and scout  KNEW  ASB was going to be a so much  better WR based on stats than ESB was going to be.   They were virtually the same guy, both over hyped by their father. As I told you before hindsight is 20-20.   If Gutey had drafted ASB and he tanked as bad as ESB you would be singing a much different tune.

Just for shits and giggles here are Amari Rodgers last 3 years at Clemson:  40 games   162 REC  2021 yards  12.5 AVE  15TD.  Well looky there, ASB and Amari have nearly identicle stats. And I am not a Gutey apoligist, just pointing out what you would say if the situation was reversed. Get a fucking clue.

@ammo posted:

OK Genius, here are the college stats:   ESB  Notre Dame  24 games 92 REC.  1484 yards  16.1 AVE.  13 TD.      ASB  USC   30 games  178 REC  2270 yards 12.8 AVE  16 TD.   OK, now show me where you, Gutey, and every other NFL GM  and scout  KNEW  ASB was going to be a so much  better WR based on stats than ESB was going to be.   They were virtually the same guy, both over hyped by their father. As I told you before hindsight is 20-20.   If Gutey had drafted ASB and he tanked as bad as ESB you would be singing a much different tune.

Just for shits and giggles here are Amari Rodgers last 3 years at Clemson:  40 games   162 REC  2021 yards  12.5 AVE  15TD.  Well looky there, ASB and Amari have nearly identicle stats. And I am not a Gutey apoligist, just pointing out what you would say if the situation was reversed. Get a fucking clue.

Hilarious.

Yeah, let's look at college stats to prove the Gutemeister's selections of Equanimeous St. Brown and Amari Rodgers were super swell no brainers.

Quick, now do Sternberger's A&M's stats and enlighten the Board on how he was obviously the better choice over Terry McLaurin.

Before getting Jace's awesome Aggie stats, maybe first take the time to enjoy another article from that "twit" Bill Huber .

Packers Might Have Closed Door on Rodgers’ Super Bowl Window

From Huber's piece:

I understand general manager Brian Gutekunst’s perspective. He thought he had built another championship-worthy powerhouse, this one with an elite defense good enough to offset his trade of Davante Adams. At some point, with Matt LaFleur directing the ship, Rodgers at the wheel and three receivers added via the draft, the offense would take flight.

None of that happened. The defense has been a huge disappointment and the offense might not be any better than it was when it got trounced in Week 1. Why throw good money after bad? Would Chase Claypool have been the defibrillator needed to get the offense going? Or was the green-and-gold patient too far gone, and the price tag of a second-round pick (and something else) too valuable for the inevitable rebuild that’s to come?

Honestly, probably the latter.

@michiganjoe posted:

Never really been a fan of second-guessing draft picks with the benefit of hindsight. Would more talent at wideout help? Of course, more talent at several offensive positions would but Huber, like many others in the media, appears to overstate the role of offensive talent in the current struggles. Talent they do have (especially the QB) simply need to execute and play better.

It's not second guessing when guys a lot of us were advocating drafting at the time turn out to be good players and the ones Fredokunst picked are shit.

@SteveLuke posted:

Hilarious.

Yeah, let's look at college stats to prove the Gutemeister's selections of Equanimeous St. Brown and Amari Rodgers were super swell no brainers.

How fucking bad is your comprehension?  The stats were to prove that Amon ra St. Brown was no better than ESB or Amari Rodgers  coming out of college.  You keep saying ASB  should have been picked  but the college stats prove  there was almost no difference to the 3 players.   If ASB sucked as bad as ESB and Gutey had drafted him you would want Gutey fired for that.   You keep throwing everything else into the discussion which has nothing to do with it.  Have to agree with Pakrz, and as I keep saying  GET A FUCKING CLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@Herschel posted:

It's not second guessing when guys a lot of us were advocating drafting at the time turn out to be good players and the ones Fredokunst picked are shit.

Wow

@Herschel posted:

It's not second guessing when guys a lot of us were advocating drafting at the time turn out to be good players and the ones Fredokunst picked are shit.

But now tell us how many guys you were advocating drafting have turned out to be shit.    Everybody on this board would be a great GM if we could redo the draft in 3 years.

@ammo posted:

But now tell us how many guys you were advocating drafting have turned out to be shit.    Everybody on this board would be a great GM if we could redo the draft in 3 years.

Fewer than Gutekunst, and that's the issue. That doesn't make me or another rando fan genius GMs, but it is a serious indictment of Fredokunst's drafting prowess. The guy's had almost 50 draft picks and about five of them are meaningful contributors to this team.

A 10% hit rate is simply not good enough for a NFL GM to build or maintain a successful franchise. Many people can see obvious talent (re: top picks) but where good GMs make their reputation is mid-late rounds where their experience and resources should be enough to give them some hits out of the chaff. Ron Wolf owned the third round and TT found a lot of solid players mid-late.

In Amari's draft profile on NFL.com, they cite an NFL scout saying he could be used like SF uses Deebo Samuel. The only problem is that Samuel is bigger and tested as significantly more athletic than Rodgers

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/amari-rodgers

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/deebo-samuel

The most damning measurable for Amari is the 10 yard split ....4th percentile compared to others at that position!! I would think that would be a real "red flag" when you are asking yourself "can this guy get separation at the NFL level"?

@Herschel posted:

Fewer than Gutekunst, and that's the issue.

Just like I thought. You wouldn't name one guy.  Chickenshit.

@FLPACKER posted:

In Amari's draft profile on NFL.com, they cite an NFL scout saying he could be used like SF uses Deebo Samuel. The only problem is that Samuel is bigger and tested as significantly more athletic than Rodgers

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/amari-rodgers

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/deebo-samuel

The most damning measurable for Amari is the 10 yard split ....4th percentile compared to others at that position!! I would think that would be a real "red flag" when you are asking yourself "can this guy get separation at the NFL level"?

I hadn't seen that 10 yard split stat.

Randall Cobb was at the 50th percentile.

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/randall-cobb

And Christian Watson has superstar level measurables.

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/christian-watson

I do think Watson is going to be very good.  In addition to his athletic ability he is very intelligent. I think it was during the broadcast of the Bears game when Collingsworth said Cobb told him that Watson had "Mike Evans" talent.

@FLPACKER posted:

I do think Watson is going to be very good.  In addition to his athletic ability he is very intelligent. I think it was during the broadcast of the Bears game when Collingsworth said Cobb told him that Watson had "Mike Evans" talent.

I can see that he has the talent of an Evans you can see its there.  I know its early and its a huge over reaction on my part but I worry he could also be like Kevin King with all the injuries.

@ammo posted:

Just like I thought. You wouldn't name one guy.  Chickenshit.

Yeah, because I'm so shy in draft threads.

I though Patrick Taylor would turn into a starting, versatile RB. He's been a roster bubble guy. I thought Anthony Miller would be a very good receiver. He's on IR with the Steelers after disappointing in Chicago and Houston. I thought Josh Rosen would be a decent NFL QB. He's not.

Doesn't change the fact Fredokunst has been garbage at drafting.

@FLPACKER posted:

I do think Watson is going to be very good.  In addition to his athletic ability he is very intelligent. I think it was during the broadcast of the Bears game when Collingsworth said Cobb told him that Watson had "Mike Evans" talent.

Except Evans can actually track and catch the ball. Those are pretty basic skills very few guys ever overcome a lack of. Julio Jones had questionable hands, but he could track the ball well, and he's an exception.

Watson may overcome those deficiencies, and it may "help" he didn't get a lot of targets in college like most other early-drafted prospects, but the odds are stacked pretty hard against him. If Adams was still on the team the dice roll may have been a more worthwhile gamble, but as the receiver room was, no. He wasn't a luxury pick where you can swing for the fences, he was needed to contribute early.

@Herschel posted:

Doesn't change the fact Fredokunst has been garbage at drafting.

We don't need to point to any one player to demonstrate Gurt hasn't been great at the draft overall, all we need to do is look at the depth of the squad when he took over, and the depth of where it is right now.

Yeah, he's hit on some players, he's been better at FA acquisition than TT, but people need to ask themselves, is this team better today than it was when he took over as GM?

No fucking way.

@Herschel posted:

Yeah, because I'm so shy in draft threads.

I though Patrick Taylor would turn into a starting, versatile RB. He's been a roster bubble guy. I thought Anthony Miller would be a very good receiver. He's on IR with the Steelers after disappointing in Chicago and Houston. I thought Josh Rosen would be a decent NFL QB. He's not.

Doesn't change the fact Fredokunst has been garbage at drafting.

Thanks for standing up. 

Troy Williamson ran a 4.32 and was a freak of nature.  Much like Watson, he was drafted to hopefully replace a legend in Randy Moss v Devante Adams for the Packers.

Maybe Watson turns out better than Williamson, but it’s been a horrific start to his career.  

@Chongo posted:

We don't need to point to any one player to demonstrate Gurt hasn't been great at the draft overall, all we need to do is look at the depth of the squad when he took over, and the depth of where it is right now.

Yeah, he's hit on some players, he's been better at FA acquisition than TT, but people need to ask themselves, is this team better today than it was when he took over as GM?

No fucking way.

2018 - Only Alexander remains on the team out of 11 picks.   Only 3 I belevie, are still in the NFL.  MVS, ESB, and Burks.

2019 - Great draft because he landed to pro bowl level guys in Gary and Jenkins.  Other than that, only Savage remains on the team and not for long.

2020- Horribe draft.   3 current contributors out of 9 picks and those are JRJ, Dequara and Dillon.   Dillon was not a position of need with AJ on your roster.

2021 - Looking extroirdinarly bad.   Stokes has digresseed and Meyers is looking Avg at best as you expect more from a C in the 2nd round.   Within a year or two it's probable that this dradt will have only 2 players on the roster.

4 drafts, 37 picks, 6- 8 players you want to keep on your roster.    That is how you create depth and cap problems.   Not being able to plug picks in to fill holes means you have to open your wallet.   The more you open your wallet, the less you are able to keep draft picks after rookie deal expires.   

It all starts with the draft and being able to find at least league average guys in the mid rounds.   The only 3rd through 5th rounders we have on this roster from Gutes  2020 or later are....  Dequara.    LOL..   

Ron Wolf and TT were elite at evaluating and selecting college players.  Gute has been solid, but he’s not been nearly as effective.  

My theory?    Wolf and TT rarely traded picks to move up.  They were more likely to trade down to get more picks to select players.  In some way, it smart in that by virtue of luck you will hit and miss on some guys regardless of evaluation.  The more chances you have, the better percentage or number of hits.  

Wolf and TT had a lot of misses.  Don’t kid yourself.  But Gute has shown a tendency to give picks away to move up.  Sometimes it worked.  See Jaire Alexander.  However, Oren Burks, Darnell Savage, Jordan Love, and Amari Rodgers have been a disaster.  Right now, Christian Watson looks like a disaster.  

I will give Gute credit on free agents.  He’s done pretty well in that department.

@Herschel posted:

Yeah, because I'm so shy in draft threads.

I though Patrick Taylor would turn into a starting, versatile RB. He's been a roster bubble guy. I thought Anthony Miller would be a very good receiver. He's on IR with the Steelers after disappointing in Chicago and Houston. I thought Josh Rosen would be a decent NFL QB. He's not.

Doesn't change the fact Fredokunst has been garbage at drafting.

One of the recent draftees that surprised me was Justin Herbert. Granted, I had only seen him play Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl, but the only consistent thing he could do in that game was scramble. He did virtually nothing through the air and looked confused and inaccurate. Based on that game, I thought he had bust written all over him.

I thought Reggie Bush was going to be a LaDanian Tomlinson or Barry Sanders. He was so dominant in college. He was a very good, but not great, pro. He was about what Aaron Jones has been.

Reggie Bush was one of the 4-5 most dominant college players that I've seen and I thought his physical skills would allow him to dominate in the NFL. The other guys who looked like that in college (at least to me) were Randy Moss, Michael Vick, and Vince Young.

Vince Young wasn't smart enough to play QB in the NFL and he was too tall to be a RB. Vick obviously had other issues. Moss' skills translated - he was essentially uncoverable for many years. He's a top 5 WR all-time, but imagine if he had been forced to learn how to run routes like Jerry Rice or Davante Adams.

Really disappointing to see Gute hide much like Ted did and force his HC to answer questions the GM should be doing, not MLF. Same shit happened with McCarthy. Not fair to either of them.

Yep. Gutekunst not being made available, however. https://t.co/F0rArWEYWi

— Matt Schneidman (@mattschneidman) November 2, 2022

Brian Gutekunst doesn’t talk in-season, so it’s no surprise he’s not. I’m not saying he should just b/c people want answers. He won’t reveal specifics, anyway. All I’m saying is the coach shouldn’t have to answer these personnel questions, but they have to be asked to someone.

— Matt Schneidman (@mattschneidman) November 2, 2022

I got it wrong on Herbert as well.  I still think he’s overrated, but he’s still a very good top 10-12 QB in this league.

No, I’m not. It’s entirely fair to say every single person covering #Packers thinks it’s a disservice to the fan base Brian Gutekunst has not availed himself to explain how 3-5 team on a 4-game losing streak that must win NOW has not taken questions on trade-deadline inactivity. https://t.co/D8zTX3El9E

— Ryan Wood (@ByRyanWood) November 2, 2022

Lack of transparency from the GM is a real problem. Just because media sessions aren't mandatory doesn't mean you shouldn't have them.

@packerboi posted:

Really disappointing to see Gute hide much like Ted did and force his HC to answer questions the GM should be doing, not MLF. Same shit happened with McCarthy. Not fair to either of them.

Once again proving how fucked up the Packers structure can be when things are going south.

Murphy and Gutey wouldn't know what to do if they had to work for an actual owner that can hire and fire them at will, rather than deal with the Packers board that moves at a glacial pace at best.

I have defended Gutey for a lot of years...but now that things are in decline, it's time he be held to account for his shortcomings...which have been there in past years, but winning has been the deodorant to explain it away.

@MichiganPacker posted:

Moss' skills translated - he was essentially uncoverable for many years. He's a top 5 WR all-time, but imagine if he had been forced to learn how to run routes like Jerry Rice or Davante Adams.

Also consider who he had throwing him the ball for a lot of years...Daunte Culpooper...he'd give VY a run for hitting every branch falling out of the Dum Dum Tree.

@Chongo posted:

... Yeah, he's hit on some players, he's been better at FA acquisition than TT, but people need to ask themselves, is this team better today than it was when he took over as GM?

No fucking way.

This team may actually be better today than ones from the past 1 or 2 years.
But they sure as hell aren't playing like it.

He's definitely made mistakes. Name me a GM who hasn't?? There isn't one.

However, he tried to trade Rodgers (which I agreed with) and has his hands tied behind him because he wasn't allowed to trade him when he had a deal worked out. That sucks because it would've kept the Packers competitive with all the draft capital that potentially could've been obtained.

He's not being given full autonomy here.  I'm not going to put 100% of the blame on the GM but the so called "owner" who is blocking the GM from doing his job.

@michiganjoe posted:

No, I’m not. It’s entirely fair to say every single person covering #Packers thinks it’s a disservice to the fan base Brian Gutekunst has not availed himself to explain how 3-5 team on a 4-game losing streak that must win NOW has not taken questions on trade-deadline inactivity. https://t.co/D8zTX3El9E

— Ryan Wood (@ByRyanWood) November 2, 2022

Lack of transparency from the GM is a real problem. Just because media sessions aren't mandatory doesn't mean you shouldn't have them.

What a mess.

@FLPACKER posted:

I do think Watson is going to be very good.  In addition to his athletic ability he is very intelligent. I think it was during the broadcast of the Bears game when Collingsworth said Cobb told him that Watson had "Mike Evans" talent.

If he can ever get out of the tub.  He's got injury prone written all over him.  MVS the second.

@Boris posted:

He's definitely made mistakes. Name me a GM who hasn't?? There isn't one.

However, he tried to trade Rodgers (which I agreed with) and has his hands tied behind him because he wasn't allowed to trade him when he had a deal worked out. That sucks because it would've kept the Packers competitive with all the draft capital that potentially could've been obtained.

He's not being given full autonomy here.  I'm not going to put 100% of the blame on the GM but the so called "owner" who is blocking the GM from doing his job.

Interesting take, Boris.  Are you talking about a deal that was on the table for Rodgers from Denver?  I know for a fact that deal existed, but I had no idea Gutey wanted to pull the trigger and was blocked by Murphy.

Regardless, Murphy is who's really behind all this fucktardedry.  He created the silos which not only showed a lack of trust, it created a lack of trust and was just...stupid.  Murphy doesn't know shit about building a football team or leading a corporation, and he has no business making football decisions.  He needs to keep his nose in building sledding hills.  Balls needs to figure out the money, he has no business making football decisions either.  Gute needs to be in charge of all football decisions, period without interference from the office bitches.  It creates an atmosphere of accountability and trust.

Now who the hell knows who's making the bad decisions?  Did MFL want to get rid of Mo Dumb as special teams coordinator but was told by someone to keep him?  Or was it MLF's fault for not axing him before it cost us the season?  Are there trades or pick ups Gutey wanted to make but was told it would cost too much or to not pull the trigger by MurphyBallz?

Unfortunately, we may never know.  What we do know is the Packers went from all in to all shit in half of a season.  Apparently the office bitches don't think a WR worth a shit is going to help this season, and they're probably right, but this sent a message to the team that they're throwing in the towel.  Good luck motivating the players the rest of the season.  There sure were a lot of better ways to spend the money we did for AR, and a whole lot of better things we could have done with a trade to Denver.  But in order for the Packers to truly turn things around next year and beyond, they have to either fire Murphy, and/or the board has to have the balls to demolish the silos.

@Chongo posted:

Also consider who he had throwing him the ball for a lot of years...Daunte Culpooper...he'd give VY a run for hitting every branch falling out of the Dum Dum Tree.

Good point. By the time he got to play with a HOF QB he was already a little past his prime, but he still had 98 catches for almost 1500 yards and 23 TDs the first year in New England. Without Tyree's helmet catch, that Patriots team is 19-0 and probably at the top of any list for the best team of all-time.

If Brady doesn't tear his ACL to start the next season (obviously amazing that Brady has played 14 years at high level after tearing his ACL at age 31), Moss probably comes close to duplicating those numbers the next year.

@Boris posted:

He's definitely made mistakes. Name me a GM who hasn't?? There isn't one.

However, he tried to trade Rodgers (which I agreed with) and has his hands tied behind him because he wasn't allowed to trade him when he had a deal worked out. That sucks because it would've kept the Packers competitive with all the draft capital that potentially could've been obtained.

He's not being given full autonomy here.  I'm not going to put 100% of the blame on the GM but the so called "owner" who is blocking the GM from doing his job.

The Packers local media lack a Bob McGinn or Cliff Christl to stir things up and find out what's really going on behind the scenes. As many have said, guys like Demosky, Ryan Wood, etc. feel they need to kiss some ass to ensure they have access to write puff pieces.

Bart Starr got so pissed at Cristl at one point, he tried to ban him from the building.

https://packerspastperfect.wor...duane-thomas-affair/

@Harry Manback posted:

Apparently the office bitches don't think a WR worth a shit is going to help this season, and they're probably right, but this sent a message to the team that they're throwing in the towel.  Good luck motivating the players the rest of the season.

Or it sends the message that help is not on the way and it's up to them to pull out of their nose dive.  AR and MLF have both harped on mental errors dooming many of their games.  That's easier to correct than being physically outmatched.  I know there is some of that going on too (OL) but I don't recall the team getting any trade reinforcements before going on their run the table streak either.  I'm not saying they're going to do that again but "cleaning things up" and getting some roster consistency can go along way towards winning.

If enough of the guys in the locker room thought the season was over because they weren't good enough to win without adding trades to their roster, I doubt 1 guy was going turn all that around anyway.

@DH13 posted:

Or it sends the message that help is not on the way and it's up to them to pull out of their nose dive.  AR and MLF have both harped on mental errors dooming many of their games.  That's easier to correct than being physically outmatched.  I know there is some of that going on too (OL) but I don't recall the team getting any trade reinforcements before going on their run the table streak either.  I'm not saying they're going to do that again but "cleaning things up" and getting some roster consistency can go along way towards winning.

If enough of the guys in the locker room thought the season was over because they weren't good enough to win without adding trades to their roster, I doubt 1 guy was going turn all that around anyway.

I'm hoping it's more of what you said.

@Harry Manback posted:

Interesting take, Boris.  Are you talking about a deal that was on the table for Rodgers from Denver?  I know for a fact that deal existed, but I had no idea Gutey wanted to pull the trigger and was blocked by Murphy.

Was that reported?

@Pakrz posted:

Was that reported?

It was all over the news locally, the local media thought it was a done deal.

@Chongo posted:

Also consider who he had throwing him the ball for a lot of years...Daunte Culpooper...he'd give VY a run for hitting every branch falling out of the Dum Dum Tree.

JaMarcus Russell says: Hi!

this whole they should have traded rodgers for “draft capital” and rebuilt ignores the fact that gutey’s draft record is worse than mediocre.  love is not the answer and neither is devonte wyatt apparently.