I could be wrong, but wasn't this thread about rebuilding a defense?
If so, I suggest that the defense gets rebuilt to allow less than 200 yds and 10 points per game. Them it may not matter who the QB is.
If this defense breaks top ten on all the significant status, say like points allowed, Superbowl assured.
Henry posted:If this defense breaks top ten on all the significant status, say like points allowed, Superbowl assured.
Yep. I think if they can move up to even top half of the league the Packers will be dangerous this year.
El-Ka-Bong posted:Taken just for draft slot, it was picks 30, 114, 150 for 52, 101, 138. That doesn't add up to "3rd round value" to me. So in order to validate "3rd round value" you've established Kizer's status had dropped significantly. I guess I am not as harsh on a rookie QB having a bad season for a train-wreck franchise. I'm guessing there is a Brown's fan out there who defends bad coaching and feels it really just sucks that we had to take such a loss just to get rid of a player that SHOULD have been one of our core players right now in Kizer.
I think it was a good trade at a good time. I will arbitrarily assign an early 2nd value on it because that seems to be the game.
I didn’t arbitrarily assign value, there’s a trade value chart that assigns value to picks. And yes when you add up all those picks it comes out to a 3rd round value. I’m also fine with the trade, we’re in agreement, not sure what the argument is about. Why is it wrong to be disappointed we didn’t get our investment in Randall back? Just like Datone Jones, Jerel Worthy, Khyri Thornton, and others, we basically got nothing out of a high round pick.
That's because you don't have a Ph.D in Theoretical Winning.
I loved Lost. Still haven't figured out the whole "Purgatory" ending though. Hurley would have made a great nose guard.
Henry posted:If this defense breaks top ten on all the significant status, say like points allowed, Superbowl assured.
I think it is possible, but I have concerns with offensive line and wide receiver including speed at wide receiver.
The purgatory part of LOST was pretty clear. The two seasons leading up to it were hard to follow.
I think the argument is confusing two different aspects of the trade. Original investment/pick vs. current player value. For example, if Datone Jones was traded for Nick Foles, it looks like you "lose value" because Jones was a RD1 pick whereas Foles was RD3. But clearly their current values heavily tilt in the opposite direction. The whole thing will hinge on how good/bad a QB Kizer turns out to be. Plus the added value of the higher picks in RD4 and RD5.
For me Lost jumped the shark when they introduced the smoke monster/being.
The Capers D jumped the shark in 2011.
Grave Digger posted:And yes when you add up all those picks it comes out to a 3rd round value.
how ya figure?
30, 114, 150 for 52, 101, 138 = 3rd round?
No.
DH13 posted:I think the argument is confusing two different aspects of the trade. Original investment/pick vs. current player value. For example, if Datone Jones was traded for Nick Foles, it looks like you "lose value" because Jones was a RD1 pick whereas Foles was RD3. But clearly their current values heavily tilt in the opposite direction. The whole thing will hinge on how good/bad a QB Kizer turns out to be. Plus the added value of the higher picks in RD4 and RD5.
Spot on. And for some reason, GD values Randall per "the original investment" while valuing Kizer at his current player value. Weird.
As far as that trade the only thing I care about is the jump in position in each round. If they haven't lost those picks of course. I'm using the Sanskrit interpretation of lost in this situation.
Kizer made a throw in the game against the Packers (TD to Gordon) that I doubt Hundley could make. Desperately needed to upgrade the backup QB position and I really like the upside in Kizer but as has been said time will tell.
For me Lost jumped the shark when they introduced the whole time jump wheel thing. The value of the trade all comes down to the picks. If Gute hits on those picks, and Kizer manages to be adequate, it's a win no matter what the numbers say.
Kizer's best game as a pro was 215 yards and 3 TD's against GB. He'd thrown a total of 3 TD's in the previous 8 games leading up to his showdown with Dom.
Dom Capers sucks.
ChilliJon posted:Kizer's best game as a pro was 215 yards and 3 TD's against GB. He'd thrown a total of 3 TD's in the previous 8 games leading up to his showdown with Dom.
Dom Capers sucks.
If not for the defensive player grabbing his arm it would have been 4 TD's.
El-Ka-Bong posted:Grave Digger posted:And yes when you add up all those picks it comes out to a 3rd round value.how ya figure?
30, 114, 150 for 52, 101, 138 = 3rd round?
No.
https://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value-Chart.asp
620 (Pick 30) + 66 (Pick 114) + 31 (Pick 150) - (380 (Pick 52) + 96 (Pick 101) + 36.5 (Pick 138)) = 204.5. That value is pick 77 in round 3.
Packersnews.com reporting that Packers are bringing back Davon House.
One year deal, no other details yet.
If he can stay on the field and makes it to the 53 he'll be a useful piece.
House, Tramon, King. Yeah, I know the first two are long in the tooth.
All have shown ability to successfully crowd receivers at the line. Please, more. I can't stand watching D's giving WRs huge cushions unless down and distance dictate it. Make those prima donnas earn every inch out there.
Grave Digger posted:El-Ka-Bong posted:Grave Digger posted:And yes when you add up all those picks it comes out to a 3rd round value.how ya figure?
30, 114, 150 for 52, 101, 138 = 3rd round?
No.
https://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value-Chart.asp
620 (Pick 30) + 66 (Pick 114) + 31 (Pick 150) - (380 (Pick 52) + 96 (Pick 101) + 36.5 (Pick 138)) = 204.5. That value is pick 77 in round 3.
that is ****ing stupid.
Lets say we just trade pick 30 for pick 52. That would be the equivalent of saying pick 30 is worth a second round pick. Not only did that happen, but we also moved up in two later rounds.
So, in terms of arbitrary value, if this were a trade that happened during the draft, the Pack would certainly be losers in the transaction, but the difference between the two is somewhere between 30 and 52 (closer to 52).
Now, when we look back, the real difference is going to be is Kizer getting out of Cleveland more meaningful than Randall escaping Capers, to that I assign 15 yards, a 6th round pick and a red card.
So let's summarize this trade:
Randall for Kizer, 4th and 5th round lost pick (since they're gone they might not count), a red card, 3 Chuck E. Cheese tokens and a set of tires.
That is some wheelin' and dealin'.
Still no Joe Thomas.
What's the draft value equivalent of losing Capers? Early second? Free 1st round comp pick? Hope?
ChilliJon posted:Kizer's best game as a pro was 215 yards and 3 TD's against GB. He'd thrown a total of 3 TD's in the previous 8 games leading up to his showdown with Dom.
Dom Capers sucks.
Kizer should look really good in camp, then!
ilcuqui posted:Packersnews.com reporting that Packers are bringing back Davon House.
One year deal, no other details yet.
If he can stay on the field and makes it to the 53 he'll be a useful piece.
House, Tramon, King. Yeah, I know the first two are long in the tooth.
All have shown ability to successfully crowd receivers at the line. Please, more. I can't stand watching D's giving WRs huge cushions unless down and distance dictate it. Make those prima donnas earn every inch out there.
Makes me think Gute will go after a pass rusher #14, then.
ChilliJon posted:What's the draft value equivalent of losing Capers? Early second? Free 1st round comp pick? Hope?
It can only be calculated in pure joy units
mrtundra posted:Makes me think Gute will go after a pass rusher #14, then.
I'm 60% confident you are right. 30% chance it is a DB, 10% OL.
El-Ka-Bong posted:mrtundra posted:Makes me think Gute will go after a pass rusher #14, then.
I'm 60% confident you are right. 30% chance it is a DB, 10% OL.
Others are saying Calvin Ridley at 14 now that House resigned. Like I said, it's going to be an interesting draft.
I'm just not a fan of Ridley in the first round, so that obviously clouds my judgment. It's not even that he isn't talented, I just see high bust potential and we need DB, OL and a pass rusher are more of a need and will fit at that position. .09%
I also feel that this is a quality draft to trade down in the first, trade up in the 3rd (or second, that would be sweet). To get an additional third round pick we'd only have to trade our 2019 1st, 4th and 5th.
El-Ka-Bong posted:that is ****ing stupid.
Lets say we just trade pick 30 for pick 52. That would be the equivalent of saying pick 30 is worth a second round pick. Not only did that happen, but we also moved up in two later rounds.
So, in terms of arbitrary value, if this were a trade that happened during the draft, the Pack would certainly be losers in the transaction, but the difference between the two is somewhere between 30 and 52 (closer to 52).
Now, when we look back, the real difference is going to be is Kizer getting out of Cleveland more meaningful than Randall escaping Capers, to that I assign 15 yards, a 6th round pick and a red card.
I didn’t invent the trade value chart. Sounds like your beef is with Jimmy Johnson as I believe he invented it.
My beef is for anyone who would fall for that being a meaningful tool
The trade chart and all those numbers are the "who cares" of the draft. The real value is who is picked at those spots and how the guys perform. Remember that Bart Starr was a 17th round pick -- the 200th player -- a draft spot that was just above a six-pack of Hamm's. Players, not draft slots.
El-Ka-Bong posted:My beef is for anyone who would fall for that being a meaningful tool
That’s a very specific sensitivity.
I wonder if one year of Randall control vs 3 years of Kizer control is worth a 3rd round pick?
Grave Digger posted:El-Ka-Bong posted:that is ****ing stupid.
Lets say we just trade pick 30 for pick 52. That would be the equivalent of saying pick 30 is worth a second round pick. Not only did that happen, but we also moved up in two later rounds.
So, in terms of arbitrary value, if this were a trade that happened during the draft, the Pack would certainly be losers in the transaction, but the difference between the two is somewhere between 30 and 52 (closer to 52).
Now, when we look back, the real difference is going to be is Kizer getting out of Cleveland more meaningful than Randall escaping Capers, to that I assign 15 yards, a 6th round pick and a red card.
I didn’t invent the trade value chart. Sounds like your beef is with Jimmy Johnson as I believe he invented it.
Believe it was Gil Brandt.
And EKB, you must have a beef will just about every (all) NFL teams because they use that chart when trading picks all the time.