@FLPACKER posted:I believe that was by design. They sold out to keep Fields from running out of the pocket & the harder you rush the harder it is to do that.
Fat lot of good it did, too, considering that long rushing TD.
When your DB's can't cover a hill of beans a pass rush goes a long way.
@Fedya posted:Fat lot of good it did, too, considering that long rushing TD.
That wasn't off a pass rush, it was off a designed QB run in which Nixon blitzed, had Fields one-on-one and missed.
I don't like Barry BUT the 3 biggest plays by Bears ...1. Fields run in which Nixon should have had him for a 1-3 yard gain 2. Alexander getting beat 3. Alexander getting beat ...were on the players. Take those away & we hold them under 300 yards
And gave up 19, that should win every game especially if that team has AR at the helm.
PSâĶâĶI am not a Barry fan either. Jimmy down in Madison is still in play, get him.
As we've discussed, Joe Barry's performance this year is no where near the level of inept performance from last years special teams. Joe Barry is a garden variety C/D+ level defensive coordinator. There's a lot of those around the league. I'm guessing he was hired because he's running the passive bend-but-don't break scheme that MLF wanted. If MLF would have wanted a heavy pressure but high-risk of big play defense, he'd have hired someone different to being with.
The Eagles game was a historical embarrassment, but other than that they haven't given up more than 28 points all season, and as Pike Peak brought up, the Packers lost games where the defense gave up 15, 20 (Giants special teams scored 7), 23, and 23.
Losing R. Gary was a big blow as they don't really have another edge rusher, and other than letting the Eagles abuse them on the ground, they haven't completely crapped the bed in any game.
My biggest concern isn't so much in his "scheme" but rather TOO MUCH emphasis is put on the scheme. Defense is about playing with great energy and technique. Get off blocks, rally to the ball, and make physical tackles. I'll take a great teacher / motivator any day. As we've talked about, the number of defenders who are playing worse than they did last season (6 by my count) speaks not to scheme, but the coaching staff .
@Pikes Peak posted:Jimmy down in Madison is still in play, get him.
He's staying in Madison with Fickell
@FLPACKER posted:My biggest concern isn't so much in his "scheme" but rather TOO MUCH emphasis is put on the scheme. Defense is about playing with great energy and technique. Get off blocks, rally to the ball, and make physical tackles. I'll take a great teacher / motivator any day. As we've talked about, the number of defenders who are playing worse than they did last season (6 by my count) speaks not to scheme, but the coaching staff .
Barry has little to no feel of the flow of the game and then how to adjust. That was painfully obvious in week 1 when Justin Jefferson was running all over the field and he failed to put his best corner on him. He had no answers for Hurts last week, and really, if not for the Bears deciding to bail on the run game in the 2nd half yesterday (why, I have no idea), the Bears likely win.
He canât adjust, and by the time he does something like bench Savage, itâs too late and itâs painfully obvious it should have been done weeks ago.
The Packers need a far better, proven option in â23
@R MaN posted:He's staying in Madison with Fickell
Link?
Check out this article from Milwaukee Journal Sentinel:
Jim Leonhard plans to return to Wisconsin under new head coach Luke Fickell, likely as defensive coordinator
Sorry B K but that story was not correct. Fickell himself said yesterday Leonard has not made a decision yet and there is no rush in him doing so.
Barry's scheme is predicated on soft, softer, and softest -- just keep them in front of you. This soft stuff allows RBs the luxury of space after they get through the line and before they encounter the LBs. It also allows receivers to either sit in that soft coverage and wait for the ball, or it allows the QB/WR to hit the zone holes on timing passes for easy completions. It's pretty easy to predict what he's calling, and there are no surprises as far as adjusting to what's happening on the field. Bend-don't-break is frustrating when you've got some good talant on D and you have to watch it be so passive.
@YooperPackfan posted:I like Jim Leonhard and all but I hope we go with someone that has a proven record amongst the pros
Zimmerman.
Or Fangio.
I'll be happy when they move on from Joe Barry Carroll, but his scheme, at least from what I'm seeing is predicated on the Offense scoring almost at will, which puts pressure on the opponent to move off their plan.
The Packers O under-performance has been just as big a problem IMO.
@H5 posted:I'll be happy when they move on from Joe Barry Carroll, but his scheme, at least from what I'm seeing is predicated on the Offense scoring almost at will, which puts pressure on the opponent to move off their plan.
The Packers O under-performance has been just as big a problem IMO.
Far too many times in the past 3 years, the offense has built a lead, many times a two score lead, and the second half is spent trying to hold on. Many times the defense did end up holding on, to the point of a game deciding play like Douglas int vs Cards, goal line stand-was it the Panthers/McCaffrey? The Ravens game. The defense became predicated on playing with a lead. As long as the offense was doing its part, they were winning games. But even in those wins, the offense still went dark for a quarter or two every week. Teams that understand complementary football do themselves a huge service in getting W's.
@MichiganPacker posted:As we've discussed, Joe Barry's performance this year is no where near the level of inept performance from last years special teams. Joe Barry is a garden variety C/D+ level defensive coordinator. There's a lot of those around the league. I'm guessing he was hired because he's running the passive bend-but-don't break scheme that MLF wanted. If MLF would have wanted a heavy pressure but high-risk of big play defense, he'd have hired someone different to being with.
The Eagles game was a historical embarrassment, but other than that they haven't given up more than 28 points all season, and as Pike Peak brought up, the Packers lost games where the defense gave up 15, 20 (Giants special teams scored 7), 23, and 23.
Losing R. Gary was a big blow as they don't really have another edge rusher, and other than letting the Eagles abuse them on the ground, they haven't completely crapped the bed in any game.
They allowed 400 yards to the Titans, a bottom-rung offense.
@artis posted:Far too many times in the past 3 years, the offense has built a lead, many times a two score lead, and the second half is spent trying to hold on. Many times the defense did end up holding on, to the point of a game deciding play like Douglas int vs Cards, goal line stand-was it the Panthers/McCaffrey? The Ravens game. The defense became predicated on playing with a lead. As long as the offense was doing its part, they were winning games. But even in those wins, the offense still went dark for a quarter or two every week. Teams that understand complementary football do themselves a huge service in getting W's.
That is also on MLF for not making adjustments to the adjustments other teams' defenses made at halftime. Talk about no feel for the game, MLF and Barry are a team.
Itâll be interesting where he ends up. And also interesting , IF, he would come to Green Bay if it will be revealed that LaFluer and Jimboo had conversations in the last week or so informing him thereâs a good chance heâll have a job at 1265 next year.
As Iâve said, MLF has to get this next hire right. And to me, that means a proven DC at the NFL level. Which would not be Leonhard
Unconcerned with JL's lack of NFL coaching experience. If the Packers have the opportunity to grab him for DC they should jump at it.
I don't know a lot about JL other than some of the things I've seen when the Badgers play on TV, so I would look at these things to evaluate if I were considering hiring him:
- Does he play to his unit's strengths? (Currently, I see guys who are aggressive and Barry makes them play passively.)
- Is he willing to move guys into different positions according to strengths and who's on the roster? (I'm thinking of the Ford/Savage/Rasul switches that took forever to make this year.)
- When planning for a game, does he recognize other teams' strengths and tendencies and how to counteract them? And then does he have a plan to counteract when the other team adjusts? (Barry: "????")
- Can he make changes in plans and pivot during a game? (Barry: "????")
- Is he a good teacher as far as tackling, teaching guys about play recognition, etc.? (Poor tackling has cost big yardage this year.)
- Can he motivate and teach guys to add a little nasty to the D side of the ball? (The D is soft, soft, soft.)
- Will he hold guys accountable? (Barry: "Get back out there even if you've missed 10 tackles in one quarter."
As a walk on for the Badgers he had to motivate himself to become the player he was. He was a 3 time All Big Ten safety.
Leonard Played for 6 different NFL teams so he has seen a lot of schemes. He was coached by Rex Ryan when with the Jets. And in his 1st year with the Badgers we was mentored by Dave Aranda. I wouldn't be worried about any of the things you mentioned Fandame.
@D J posted:They allowed 400 yards to the Titans, a bottom-rung offense.
And it wasnât Derrick Henry that shredded the Packers defense, which would have at least been understandable. They contained him, allowing only 87 yards on 28 carries.
It was Ryan freakinâ Tannehill.
Ammo, I don't know JL that much, so wanted to know. It's how he uses that knowledge that I want to know.
I see a daisy smoking a cigar.
@PackLandVA posted:I see a daisy smoking a cigar.
I don't get it. I stared & stared & stared &&& stared.
@The Grinder posted:I don't get it. I stared & stared & stared &&& stared.
It says Terry Glenn is still dead.
The Green Bay Packers run defense is on the verge of history ... not the good kind (paywall)
If the season were to end today, the Packers would be one of six teams in modern football history to allow opponents 5 yards per carry over the course of a season, according to Stathead.com. The franchiseâs worst finish in yards per carry allowed was 4.8 set in 2002.
@michiganjoe posted:Unconcerned with JL's lack of NFL coaching experience. If the Packers have the opportunity to grab him for DC they should jump at it.
I couldn't agree more. Normally I would worry about a college coach moving up to the NFL but for some reason I don't have that concern with JL.
Something needs to be done on the defensive side of the ball with whatever scheme they are running. Giving up 5 yards per carry with all that talent on that side of the ball is just inexcusable.
Packers should move to a 4-3?
4-3 Would Suit Defense Better â PACKERS NOTES
Green Bay has been playing a 3-4 defense for the past decade and a half, and the results have not been good. While mediocre (at best) coordinators and suspect talent have been more to blame than any particular alignment; maybe itâs time to try something different. After all, five of the top six and seven of the top 10 defenses in the National Football League this season are playing a 4-3. Much more importantly, the Packersâ personnel is actually better suited for that scheme.
The following is a look at the front seven positions in a 4-3 defense and which current Packers could fill them next season:
DEFENSIVE ENDS
There are two defensive ends in the 4-3 scheme. Their primary role is to get to the quarterback and create pressure. The 4â3 DEâs are the smallest of all of the defensive linemen due to their emphasis on speed over strength. They still need to be strong enough to fight their way past tackles yet quick enough to pursue the running backs on runs to the outside. Ideal 4â3 ends are athletic, and their strength is getting up the field quickly. They usually weigh between 260 and 275 pounds.
Finding quality ends for a 3-4 isnât easy. Just ask the Packers. Theyâve had only two since installing the scheme in 2009 (Cullen Jenkins and Mike Daniels). Finding quality ends to play in a 4-3 is easier. Rashan Gary excelled at that position in college. Fellow first-rounders from the Class of â19 â Washingtonâs Montez Sweat and Carolinaâs Brian Burns â have been putting up big numbers in a 4-3 for the past four seasons, and neither is as talented as Gary. While Preston Smith and Kingsley Enagbare donât fit quite as well, theyâd likely be as good with their hand in the dirt as they are standing up.
DEFENSIVE TACKLES
There are two defensive tackles in the 4â3 scheme. The nose tackle is typically slightly larger and stronger and plays a shade or head-up technique which means he lines up on either outside shoulder of the center or in the middle of his body, depending on which way the strength of the play is going. The nose tackleâs primary job is to stop the run and take on the double team, thus freeing up the linebackers to make a play. The second defensive tackle is generally a bit quicker and faster than the nose tackle, ideally weighing about 300 pounds but quick-footed enough to shoot through gaps at the snap. He plays a three-technique, meaning he lines up on the outside shoulder of the strong-side offensive guard. The job of a three-tech is to prevent the run, keep the guard off linebackers, and rush the quarterback on pass plays.
Kenny Clark could line up at either tackle position, depending on the opponent. Against offenses that like to pound the ball between the tackles, he could play the three-technique alongside 330-pound T.J. Slaton. Against offenses that want to spread the field, Clark could play nose tackle next to Devonte Wyatt. Both youngsters would benefit from switching to the 4-3. The rapidly ascending Slaton could get on the field more often because he would no longer be stuck behind Clark, and Wyattâs skill set is better suited to being a three-technique than a five-technique. He could use agility and first-step quickness the way he did at Georgia, the way that made him worthy of being taken 28th overall in last Aprilâs draft.
MIDDLE LINEBACKER
There is only one inside linebacker in the 4â3 scheme, sometimes known as the âMikeâ linebacker. He must be as smart as he is athletic, acting as the âquarterback of the defense.â The primary responsibility of the âMikeâ is to stop the run, though he will often be asked to fall back in zone coverage in pass protection; man-to-man coverage typically has him assigned to the fullback. The âMikeâ linebacker is often the largest of all of the linebackers, weighing between 235 and 250 pounds.
At just under 235 pounds, DeâVondre Campbell is slightly lighter than the typical âMikeâ linebacker, but he played the position at times with Atlanta and Phoenix. While heâd be excellent in coverage, he would need protection versus the run. Youâd like to think Clark, Slaton, and Wyatt would be up to the task. Another option would be to switch Campbell to outside linebacker â where he also played before coming to Green Bay â and use Krys Barnes or a newcomer in the middle.
OUTSIDE LINEBACKERS
There are two outside linebackers in the 4â3 scheme. They are known as the strong-side and weak-side linebackers. The strong-side, or âSamâ linebacker, is so named because he sticks to the strong side of the defense, across from the tight end. The âSamâ does his fair share of blitzing; however, he also needs to play the run and will usually be relied upon to cover the TE or a back out of the backfield. The weak-side, or âWillâ linebacker, will play on the weak side and has more freedom, often blitzing or guarding against the screen. These linebackers usually weigh between 225 and 240 pounds.
While rookie Quay Walker has shown promise as a 3-4 inside linebacker, he has the skill set to be an All-Pro caliber âWillâ linebacker. Minus the task of having to battle through traffic and make plays on runs between the tackles, the former Georgia standout could simply do what he does best â fly to the ball and apply pressure off the edge. Heâd also benefit in coverage since his responsibilities would be simplified. Itâs easier for an offensive coordinator to fool a 3-4 inside linebacker than a 4-3 outside linebacker. Walker could also play the âSamâ if needed. Right now, that position would best be filled by Tipa Galeai. The 230-pounder is too small for the 3-4, but he might fit in a 4-3. He showed the ability to neutralize tight ends and get after the quarterback at Utah State. If not Galeai or athletic journeyman Justin Hollins, the Packers should be able to find a quality outside linebacker in the draft. There are plenty of them available every April.
Do I expect the Packers to switch from the 3-4 to the 4-3 next season? No, Itâs far more likely that coach Matt LaFleur will simply look to upgrade from current defensive coordinator Joe Barry and hire somebody like Vic Fangio or local hero Jim Leonhard. But that wonât change the fact that the personnel is better suited for a 4-3. Of course, thatâs been the case for about a decade. LaFleur and his predecessor, Mike McCarthy, were determined to force square pegs into round holes. The results were as expected â mediocre units that rarely played up to expectations and often failed in January.
I couldn't agree more. Normally I would worry about a college coach moving up to the NFL but for some reason I don't have that concern with JL.
Something needs to be done on the defensive side of the ball with whatever scheme they are running. Giving up 5 yards per carry with all that talent on that side of the ball is just inexcusable.
Is the D talent underperforming or is the D full of bad high draft picks? We know Clark and Jaire can play. Campbell seemed to have lived his best life last year. Walker is a rookie that struggles in run support. Who else do we know is on the high end of the talent spectrum? I'm not excusing Barry from his share but what is his share?
Gary
Honestly, I get the vibe the defense tuned Barry out at the start of the season and it began with Alexander being told to stay in zone and not follow Jefferson in that Viking game in week 1.
I really feel like those team leaders (Jaire, Clark, Campbell, etc) feel that Barry has no idea what the fuck he's doing. And when a coach loses his unit, it's the kiss of death.
And I also feel like MLF knows this and there isn't shit he can do about short of firing him mid-season and we know that wasn't going to happen.
What Packerboi said.
Pretty obvious the defensive players (as well as most fans) have very little faith in Barry's scheme. Really can't overstate what a catastrophic mistake his hiring by MLF was.
Don't care if 12 or 10 is QB1 next year. Don't care if we run 3-4 or 4-3.
What I do care about is making meaningful changes to the scheme on both sides of the ball...like we did with ST this year...and that starts with coaching.
I believe MLF has it in him to make requisite changes to the offense in the off-season. He is a smert guy when it comes to that. If 12 truly is a problem, not running things as he wants, then it's time to move on.
On D I don't believe drafting poorly is a bigger issue as much as it is scheme/coaching. The NFL is filled with stories of poor defenses that get the right DC in place, and in one season go from awful to respectable.
The time for fuck-fuck is over...it's time to make meaningful changes that show me this club is dedicated to making real progress toward winning. If that means we roll with a new DC and #10 as QB1, and we end up going 3-14, I can deal with that...because it means we are making changes.
Right now this GM and HC reek of desperation...paralyzed from making changes because they believe they are so close to a title. 2022 proved they are not as close as they think they are, and it's time for a mini-rebuild. If we don't see meaningful improvement in the next 2 years, it's time to start over totally.
Just my $.02