He's off target on occasion but this is a bigger problem. <Nearly a third of Watson's 41 receptions as a rookie came on throws of 20 or more yards, but this year just 1 of 7 on those kind of opportunities and 5 of those 7 have been deemed catchable.>
Lots of rookies take steps backward in their second seasons.
The #Packers may bench QB Jordan Love in favor of rookie Sean Clifford, per Chris Simms of NBC.
— MLFootball (@_MLFootball) November 1, 2023
“The inconsistencies of the #Packers offense. It's even more than I thought it would be”
“I wonder with them if they're going to start talking or getting Sean Clifford ready to go,… pic.twitter.com/SbUA6Svyid
Why not? He may be Kurt Warner sitting under our noses.
@artis posted:I'm having trouble reconciling the idea that the qb needs to set the standard with the drops we saw on Sunday. The ball down the middle to Reed was a great throw, maybe a hair underthrown, but absolutely a ball that is Reed's for the taking if he wants it. The slant to Wicks is right on him, nothing any different than we've seen from Rodgers hundreds of times.
I see that different. The Reed throw was catchable, but I don't see it in any way as great. That and the Watson end zone were belly throws. Imo, He needs to give the receivers a chance to jump up and fight for it. The ball location is making Watson 5'10 instead of 6'5. It's nitpicking but that's the difference for success in NFL level football. If the ball comes in flat it's getting sent to the ground more often than not.
100% on the Wicks slant, but players also drop slants for every other QB in the league. It doesn't excuse his poor throws on other plays. He rarely ever hits a WR in stride. They're have been numerous early in the play opportunities he's passed over.
It's really difficult to play QB at the NFL level, but if he can't consistently place the ball in premium locations we're wasting everyone's time here. There's a myriad of flaws that make a QB untenable as a starter. If they want to fool around and give him two seasons to be dead sure he isn't the guy go for it, just make sure we're bringing in a QB with starter level potential that can develop in the mean time.
Love makes some pretty throws outside the hashes, but his crossers, and downfield throws make me wonder what the hell they've been doing to develop him the last three years. At some point all the arrows point to a lack of accuracy that can't be corrected. I might be wrong or I might be there sooner than you in realizing it. You can't build a successful offense with an inaccurate passer unless he's doing some Cam Newton level nonsense to make sh!T happen.
I'm not saying you're wrong for seeing things the way you do. There are plenty of drops and sloppy routes and everything else. I just have a difference of opinion on who 10 is, where he is, and what he's capable of.
If they believed in him despite everything around him I think they'd jump at the chance to sign him to a 4 year low money starter level contract with a modest signing bonus as soon as possible and he'd be smart to take it.
He's intentionally being put through the crucible right now, imo. They see where he lacks and want to see if he has enough of everything else to keep a challenging situation manageable. Can he pull everyone together and make plays to make them competitive.
If he's hesitant to make the structure throw Gutey has provided him a bunch of different athletic toolsets to go make something happen in the wing it style of extended gameplay. He's got a burner in Watson, a big fast TE in 88, a guy he's practiced with forever in 87, a guy in Reed who's shifty underneath. If he wants to go playground he's gotta figure out a way to connect with the other young guys and start making plays. He's only got so much time to prove it.
I promise I want him to be successful, I just have major doubts with what he's hasn't shown so far.
The wrap on Watson is he makes himself 5'11 by falling backwards to make catches and doesn't take advantage of his height by high pointing the ball. That was his college scouting report and exactly what we've seen this year. The Reed pass hit him right in the chest and was recorded as a drop.
James Jones unloaded on MLF for not opening up the offense. We do see an unusual number of very short routes but that could be by design because of the weak pass protection.
Nobody should seriously believe that the Packers are considering moving to Clifford at this point.
@PackerRick posted:<Nearly a third of Watson's 41 receptions as a rookie came on throws of 20 or more yards, but this year just 1 of 7 on those kind of opportunities and 5 of those 7 have been deemed catchable.>
1/3 of 41 = 13
5 of 7 deemed catchable (BUT THEY WERE NOT CAUGHT)
5 in 7 games = 11 or 12 in 17 games. Not much different than last year I’d say.
@PackerRick posted:The wrap on Watson is...
I'm not trying to defend Watson because a lot of that is 100% correct, but also the wrap on Love is...
None of Love's ball catchers can catch the ball, consistently, If the ball hits a receiver in the hands, the receiver should catch it. Period. Jugs machine time! Everybody dropped passes vs Minnesota. Will we ever see Musgrave or Watson get to use their speed to get past the defense, down the field, in this offense? Almost every catch Musgrave has made, has been under the coverage, with zero YAC. I want to see his speed used properly. Versus the vikings, two missed catches Watson had were due to him being interfered with, with no flag in either play, from the flag happy Hochuli crew. The other receivers on this team had better shape up. Maybe someone should get demoted, so DuBose can be activated. His play cannot be any worse than what we've seen, so far. When is Heath expected back? Did Toure have any passes thrown his way, in the viking game? Nope.
@PackerRick posted:The wrap on Watson is he makes himself 5'11 by falling backwards to make catches and doesn't take advantage of his height by high pointing the ball. That was his college scouting report and exactly what we've seen this year. The Reed pass hit him right in the chest and was recorded as a drop.
James Jones unloaded on MLF for not opening up the offense. We do see an unusual number of very short routes but that could be by design because of the weak pass protection.
I agree with Jones to an extent, but also I think MLF is having a crisis of confidence. Rodgers eluded to this last year after the Jets game, they were trying to dumb this shit down for basically this same group and they still couldn't execute. So how is MLF supposed to "open things up" when understanding the play calls, running routes, blocking, and catching aren't really getting done consistently. If I'm MLF I want to see the fundamentals get better before I ask anything more complicated...lets figure out how to heat up a frozen pizza before we try to make a 5 course dinner from scratch.
@titmfatied posted:I'm not trying to defend Watson because a lot of that is 100% correct, but also the wrap on Love is...
Name somebody on offense that is playing better. Without drops last week he's 30-41 and would have been well over 300 yds with a win. Same thing in the Raiders game. He runs the ball to get he Packers in position for a game winning FG but a Jenkins penalty moves them 20 yards out of FG range and makes it 2nd and 20. He's within 100 yards of being the team's leading rusher halfway through the season. What does that say about the support he's getting from the run game and OL in general? The play calling has been abysmal. He's not getting any help.
He obviously has to play better but to pile on him for the state of the offense really shouldn't be happening.
Love has been inaccurate and the WRs have dropped some balls but the biggest problem with the passing game is the OL. The worst secondary in the NFL can succeed when the passing game has no time to even run the routes.
My gut says we haven't gotten to see the real MLF until this season. 12 made up for a lot of his deficiencies with understanding of the offense, and checking out of bad matchups.
As much as many of a certain younger generation would like to believe, the actual NFL isn't a game of Madden...where if you just dial up the perfect play, things will come of without a hitch. The same idiots that think you can win a World Series by praying exclusively at the altar of Sabermetrics.
Metrics aren't nothing, but they are certainly not everything. Sports are played by humans and susceptible to human error.
QB is a position you can't "just get by," with a guy at...there is a reason the league is littered with big arm talent guys who never did shit. I am by no means shutting the door on 10...but he has done little to show me this season he has all the necessary tools to be a starting QB in the NFL. Nothing ever looks easy for him. Some of that is on MLF...but the larger portion is on him.
@Chongo posted:My gut says we haven't gotten to see the real MLF until this season. 12 made up for a lot of his deficiencies with understanding of the offense, and checking out of bad matchups.
I'm starting to think close to every play was an audible or some different variation of the called play changed at the LOS by Rodgers. And that's really the flexibility an offense needs. A played called on 2nd and 7 is assuming the look the defense will give. It's more like a starting point and the chess match begins when the defense shows what they are doing.
That’s what I don’t understand about the ballyhooed scripted first 15.
@Chongo posted:My gut says we haven't gotten to see the real MLF until this season. 12 made up for a lot of his deficiencies with understanding of the offense, and checking out of bad matchups.
I agree with this, but I also don't think that should be that shocking. Mike Martz orchestrated one of the greatest offenses in league history, but looked like an idiot without Warner. Mike Shannahan was never an offensive genius again without Elway. There's a laundry list of "genius" play callers who just meshed with a QB and then couldn't hack it after they left. Hell even McVay, who is about as keen an offensive mind as there is, couldn't get over the hump without a legit franchise QB. Shannahan and McDaniel are about the only two guys right now who can generate offense WITHOUT a real bona fide franchise QB.
To me MLF's problem is that I think he's too much like Mike McCarthy. He's a QB coach...played QB, basically only coached QBs, runs a QB driven offense. He needs an OC or analyst or whatever who is a running game guru that can balance out his scheme and help him create opportunities in the run game. McCarthy never really seemed to understand the running game and never really took it seriously. That would require self reflection and humility, something I don't think these guys do.
The problem with assessing talent and development in the NFL is so many things have to come together all at once to have success.
A key injury or two can dramatically impact how well the team performs overall. Penalties can kill drives. Teams scout the shit out of each other so tendencies are pretty well understood.
The QB has such an huge impact on the game that you can make up for a lot of those issues or it can make matters worse. For 25 years Favre and Rodgers tilted the field in their favor 80%+ of the time just by virtue of how good they were. Right now, Love is literally half as talented as those two guys, so he has to play nearly perfect to not be a detriment to the team.
@vitaflo posted:To Doubs credit he looks back and sees Love with the ball and immediately disengages his blocker and goes out for a route for Love to throw him the ball. But yeah obviously either Doubs or Watson were supposed to get the ball on a hot read and never caught on.
It sounds to me like they're struggling with RPO's. This play was a f'ed up RPO that Doubs didn't read correctly or hear the call correctly. I read another assessment of the illegal man downfield penalties being the result of f'ed up RPO's. And there have been an unusually high number of those penalties.
One of the plays down near the GL during the series where they scored the TD looked like it was a designed RPO that 10 guessed incorrectly and chose the pass when 28 would have walked in off center if he had handed it off.
@PackLandVA posted:Lots of rookies take steps backward in their second seasons.
This is very true. The second year challenges are usually getting the route running and defense reading down, and learning how to counter defenses and DB's who know how to attack your tendencies and weaknesses. It's not usually fundamentals like catching the ball.
The issue that concerns me with Watson is that his inability to use his frame and height to win contested balls isn't something you typically have to learn when you get into the NFL. It's one of those things receivers seem to already know how to do in college or even HS. Guys can always improve on their basic skills in practice and drills but Watson looks like he never learned it to begin with.
Anybody else remember Bill Schroeder?
@Grave Digger posted:To me MLF's problem is that I think he's too much like Mike McCarthy. He's a QB coach...played QB, basically only coached QBs, runs a QB driven offense. He needs an OC or analyst or whatever who is a running game guru that can balance out his scheme and help him create opportunities in the run game. McCarthy never really seemed to understand the running game and never really took it seriously. That would require self reflection and humility, something I don't think these guys do.
The same can be said of Kyle Shanahan...the difference is he grew up with a wildly successful NFL HC as his mentor. And he has just enough asshole in him to an effective leader.
MLF is too much of a nice guy. Not to say you have to be a raging ass-wipe to be an effective coach...but you gotta have enough sack to fire people and replace them when they are not cutting it.
I've said it's time for him to step back and become a HC, and delegate playcalling to someone else...the problem is, I don't think Stenavich (or Clements for that matter) are those guys...so he's stuck doing it for now.
I agree on Watson. If he doesn't know how to use his frame to his advantage by now he probably never will. It was in his scouting report coming out of college and 2 years later it's still his MO. He runs lousy routes but that can be improved. But the instinctive stuff is usually there or it never will be.
I see him as a #4 WR, a one trick pony, and not much different than MVS.
I'm beginning to think Rodgers almost never audibled last year. His perceived audibles were simply him calling the plays at the line.
@Tschmack posted:Right now, Love is literally half as talented as those two guys, so he has to play nearly perfect to not be a detriment to the team.
This is why I think expectations are too high for Love. He was never expected to come in and carry the team. This offense was expected to be built around the run and MLF's innovative offense. We've seen neither. Dillion has 266 yards rushing and Love has 164. That couldn't have ever been the plan.
@PackerRick posted:I agree on Watson. If he doesn't know how to use his frame to his advantage by now he probably never will. It was in his scouting report coming out of college and 2 years later it's still his MO. He runs lousy routes but that can be improved. But the instinctive stuff is usually there or it never will be.
I see him as a #4 WR, a one trick pony, and not much different than MVS.
You are correct on Watson and his scouting reports I’m afraid. I don’t think he will ever progress to a true #1 receiver.
Love’s scouting reports indicated that he struggled with decision making and accuracy. We are certainly seeing that now even after he’s had a few years to hone his skills and learn from a HOF QB. We can blame all sorts of things on the other guys or the coaches or the line or whatever… but the bottom line is Love doesn’t appear to be good enough to me. He’s been pretty bad.
@PackerRick posted:This is why I think expectations are too high for Love. He was never expected to come in and carry the team. This offense was expected to be built around the run and MLF's innovative offense. We've seen neither. Dillion has 266 yards rushing and Love has 164. That couldn't have ever been the plan.
I don’t think teams move up in R1 for QBs who are game managers, which is essentially what you’re saying. You move up in R1 to take a shot at what you hope is the next great one. All signs at the moment point to a “swing and a miss.”
A top 5 QB I agree you're looking for a franchise guy but late in round round not so much. I don't think anybody viewed Love as the 3rd HOFer.
The guy has played 7 games with a dysfunctional offense, something he clearly is a part of. But this season is a write off and we just need to see guys improve and jell as a team for next season. If it looks like this at the end of the season it's probably time to blow it up. I said a few times, no matter what, if the Packers are drafting high enough to get a QB they must take one. Love has one year left on his contract and the Packers are not overcommitted.
@PackerRick posted:This is why I think expectations are too high for Love. He was never expected to come in and carry the team. This offense was expected to be built around the run and MLF's innovative offense. We've seen neither. Dillion has 266 yards rushing and Love has 164. That couldn't have ever been the plan.
Expectations too high? If being a competent, not spectacular, NFL starter in his 4th year in the league is "too high," I need to find a new sport.
Try soccer.
Its the sport of the future…and always will be.
@Chongo posted:Expectations too high? If being a competent, not spectacular, NFL starter in his 4th year in the league is "too high," I need to find a new sport.
This is what I was responding to, a comment about the two HOF QBs Love is following. <Right now, Love is literally half as talented as those two guys, so he has to play nearly perfect to not be a detriment to the team. >
Right now, with every unit playing like crap, it's seems like people were expecting him to have the ability to overcome that. Nobody has ever answered who on offense is playing any better.
They over committed when they drafted him. Blew a 4th and a first round pick. You don't trade up in R1 for a QB because you are looking for JAG
Saw way more good out of Levis these past two weeks then our Franchise that is in year 4.
Last night Levis was in the same position that Love has been many times and had the same result, a game ending INT. Plus the previous play was a dropped INT. What is way more good about that?
@Blair Kiel posted:Try soccer.
Its the sport of the future…and always will be.
For some it's the sport of the past.
@PackerRick posted:Last night Levis was in the same position that Love has been many times and had the same result, a game ending INT. Plus the previous play was a dropped INT. What is way more good about that?
Once vs. many. Levis was the reason they were in the game. Not what cost it.
1st year guy 2nd start in the league. 4 year guy been shitting the bed all but maybe 10 quarters this year.
Who do you think would be playing QB right now if the Packers hadn't drafted Love? Surely you would have been against drafting any QB when we were one skilled player away. And I still don't see anybody on offense playing any better. Is he really holding this offense back? He's our #2 rusher and it's not by choice.
@lovepack posted:Why not? He may be Kurt Warner sitting under our noses.
Or Brenda Warner.
This whole year is just a cluster F. I am more alarmed by the coaching or lack of it including MLF and Barry over what Love is or is not doing. Even the Chiefs are having issues this year because of their receivers. The problem is not Mahomes. Gute and MLF though the kid WRs would be fine. Well they were wrong.
Think Love probably looks substantially better in Tennessee's offense as well. Really amazing to see people actually believe you can accurately evaluate Love based on a handful of starts surrounded by a dysfunctional offense.
Evaluation process likely to take two complete seasons.