Love Notes - 2023 Game 3 and up!

@PackerRick posted:

Who do you think would be playing QB right now if the Packers hadn't drafted Love? Surely you would have been against drafting any QB when we were one skilled player away. And I still don't see anybody on offense playing any better. Is he really holding this offense back? He's our #2 rusher and it's not by choice.

Probably Rodgers but who knows. That pick in 2020 clearly created a huge level of butthurt with 12 that he never got past. He can say he was angry about how the organization treated other players and that he had no problem with Love himself. That's probably all true but after that pick Rodgers was done with front office. He was probably done with MLF as well after seeing how he reacted immediately after the pick happened.

A lot of people think that pick motivated him to the point of playing like an MVP in 2020 and 2021. And maybe it did. So if that pick doesn't happen in 2020, how does Rodgers play the next two years? If it's anything close to what actually happened then he's probably still QB1 in GB. If he was more like 2018-2019 Rodgers then maybe they pick a QB in 2021 or 2022 and the same thing happens just later in his career.

I have no idea what the rest of TEN's offensive roster looks like.  Because it's Vrabel, I'm guessing they have a good OL.  How is their D?  Giving up too many points and putting in passing mode too often?  Making stops and giving them good field position?  Hard to say without context but all those things would make a QB's job easier.  Don't they also have D'Andre Hopkins?

Incredible job by Vrabel just to be competitive....slew of injuries have forced them to play 13 undrafted players!!

@michiganjoe posted:

Think Love probably looks substantially better in Tennessee's offense as well.  Really amazing to see people actually believe you can accurately evaluate Love based on a handful of starts surrounded by a dysfunctional offense.

Evaluation process likely to take two complete seasons

Year 4  His 8th start.  

if you are in you’re 4th year at a job and Have had 8 first chairs and you are 2-6 in those chairs.  Showing no progress, only decline  

How long will the first chair be kept warm for you?

You really think another 1.5 years?

Sign me up

@michiganjoe posted:

Think Love probably looks substantially better in Tennessee's offense as well.  Really amazing to see people actually believe you can accurately evaluate Love based on a handful of starts surrounded by a dysfunctional offense.

Evaluation process likely to take two complete seasons.

If our crack talent evaluators take two full years to evaluate anyone something’s wrong.  

@PackerHawk posted:

Probably Rodgers but who knows. That pick in 2020 clearly created a huge level of butthurt with 12 that he never got past.

If you look at Rodgers' numbers the three seasons before Love was drafted it's easy to see why a QB was taken, ratings of 97, 97, 95. Many people, even in here, thought the end was near.

@Iowacheese posted:

Year 4  His 8th start.  

if you are in you’re 4th year at a job and Have had 8 first chairs and you are 2-6 in those chairs.  Showing no progress, only decline  

How long will the first chair be kept warm for you?

You really think another 1.5 years?

Sign me up

I'd be very surprised if Love isn't the starting QB next season and it would take a top 5 pick to replace him during the season. Nobody throws away 3 years of grooming based on 7 games with a dysfunctional offense. Whenever you're ready to answer the question of who is playing better on offense fire away. This is the fault of many, some standing on the sidelines. I'd actually like to see Rodgers reaction in this offense when Walker doesn't even get a hand on a pass rusher.

Lots of questions about the QB in the presser. Shocked if Love isn't the starter next year.

@PackerHawk posted:

Probably Rodgers but who knows. That pick in 2020 clearly created a huge level of butthurt with 12 that he never got past. He can say he was angry about how the organization treated other players and that he had no problem with Love himself. That's probably all true but after that pick Rodgers was done with front office. He was probably done with MLF as well after seeing how he reacted immediately after the pick happened.

A lot of people think that pick motivated him to the point of playing like an MVP in 2020 and 2021. And maybe it did. So if that pick doesn't happen in 2020, how does Rodgers play the next two years? If it's anything close to what actually happened then he's probably still QB1 in GB. If he was more like 2018-2019 Rodgers then maybe they pick a QB in 2021 or 2022 and the same thing happens just later in his career.

I was watching that draft pick live and I thought MLF's reaction when they were able to draft Love was a bit over the top.

As we discussed many times on the board, it wasn't just the Love pick that year that Rodgers (or any other veteran on that team) would be irritated by. It was that they used the first four rounds of picks to take guys that would be unlikely to contribute in their first year at all.

They had just gone 13-3 and weren't losing anyone that wasn't easily upgradable. They really, really, really needed a TE that could be a threat in the passing game with Tonyan coming off a knee injury - that wasn't DeGuara at all. If their scouting staff thought that, they need to reevaluate their scouting staff.

They gave up their 1st and 4th round picks for Love. You can debate that, but they needed a backup QB and you could argue that maybe having a 1st round pick rather than Tim Boyle might give you a better chance to tread water if Rodgers missed 3-4 weeks.

Dillon was overdrafted no matter how you look at it. He had like a 4th round grade and isn't a game breaker. The fact you already had two veteran backs on the roster (Williams and Jones) and that you can get RBs that can function well in the 4th round or later made it clear the Dillon was pick was looking at 2021, not 2020.

I still don't know what they saw in DeGuara. He was a consensus 6th round graded guy. I realize that often times the actual scouts have much different opinions, but there was nothing about him that stood out enough to justify a 3rd round pick (with the intention of just letting him sit a year).

You don't expect 5th round guys to be superstars, but Kamal Martin was their pick and he was a consensus UDFA grade.

@Floridarob posted:

This whole year is just a cluster F. I am more alarmed by the coaching or lack of it including MLF and Barry over what Love is or is not doing. Even the Chiefs are having issues this year because of their receivers. The problem is not Mahomes. Gute and MLF though the kid WRs would be fine. Well they were wrong.

MLF went on the record about his desire for a veteran receiver to be brought in this offseason.

https://www.nfl.com/news/packe...-some-veteran-leader

Gute, as always, knew better.

@Pikes Peak posted:

If our crack talent evaluators take two full years to evaluate anyone something’s wrong.  

They've also seen him every day in practice for the last 4 training camps. Those hundreds of hours tell you a lot. It's how they knew Rodgers was going to potentially be good.

Really, Love will make the decision. If the Pack ends up with a top 3 pick, it’s because Love couldn’t get them more wins. If they end up with, let’s say, the 10th pick that means Love was able to win enough games with this rag-tag crew to deserve a chance to be QB1 moving forward.

@MichiganPacker posted:

They gave up their 1st and 4th round picks for Love. You can debate that, but they needed a backup QB and you could argue that maybe having a 1st round pick rather than Tim Boyle might give you a better chance to tread water if Rodgers missed 3-4 weeks.

The Packers were coming off a 13-3 season which was kind of like the season the Vikings had last year when it came to bounces. Rogers was coming off his 3rd consecutive subpar season and Boyle was not the answer as the heir apparent.

It has been said the Packers moved up to take Jefferson and then the Vikes leapfrogged them. So taking a QB was probably not the intention when they made the trade but plan B was.

@SteveLuke posted:

MLF went on the record about his desire for a veteran receiver to be brought in this offseason.

https://www.nfl.com/news/packe...-some-veteran-leader

Gute, as always, knew better.

And you’d have been the first to bitch about any lack of production (see Cobb, Watkins) regardless of whether or not they were brought in as mentors, leaders and on-field coaches. Because that’s what you do.

Oh, the irony.

@justanotherpackerfan posted:

Really, Love will make the decision. If the Pack ends up with a top 3 pick, it’s because Love couldn’t get them more wins. If they end up with, let’s say, the 10th pick that means Love was able to win enough games with this rag-tag crew to deserve a chance to be QB1 moving forward.

I don't care if Love closes strong but the Packers still lose enough to have a shot at a franchise QB, the Packers still must take one. Those chances don't come often. When is the last time the Packers had a top 3 pick?

I've seen a few mocks that have McCarthy in the top 10.  Franchise QB?

@PackerRick posted:

I don't care if Love closes strong but the Packers still lose enough to have a shot at a franchise QB, the Packers still must take one. Those chances don't come often. When is the last time the Packers had a top 3 pick?

Tony Mandarich?

@PackerRick posted:

I don't care if Love closes strong but the Packers still lose enough to have a shot at a franchise QB, the Packers still must take one. Those chances don't come often. When is the last time the Packers had a top 3 pick?

Tony Mandarich. 

Most of the issues this offense is having are the same issues that took them from 13 wins to 8. The same issues that reared their head the previous 3 years against good teams, and also in the postseason. Offensive line, stagnation in the passing game, whether it be wrong routes or missed protection, etc., failure to put guys in position to make plays.

Some people are saying Love is being put through the crucible. Some are saying it's time to take the training wheels off. Those to me are blatant contradictions. Is MLF dialing it back or is he not? From what I see, I have no idea what MLF is doing or what he's even trying to get done. But I also know that the same issues continue to plague this team while the fundamentals have fallen by the wayside in a big way.

Not only is Love suffering the expected bumpy road that most qbs must push through to become a solid qb in the NFL. He's also under the guise of a head coach, an offensive guru, who is in his first year without a hof qb. This means that a ton of what MLF grew to take for granted is now yanked out of the offense and we are seeing the dysfunction or inability to actually coach. When you can't even clean up the fundamentals-and this is a huge issue that goes back much further than 2023- why would anyone trust you know what you're doing in terms of implementing a scheme or philosophy, especially with a first year starter?

Love has had plenty of poor throws and very questionable decisions so far. But we're also talking about a head coach and offense that yielded much the same from Rodgers a year ago. Many bad throws, numerous "fuck it" desperate heaves, wrong routes, missed assignments, you name it. The team, and worst of all, Rodgers himself, became resigned to losing games. For competitors of the highest order, that resignation comes after the blow ups and berating of teammates. It's even worse than that, because you essentially just give up, like ARod did in Lambeau with the postseason on the line. Now throw in your next qb, and take away the one catalyst on offense, who even when he's active, sees the ball 11 times per game.

Love should be scrutinized, but it should be based on everything, not just compared to the last guy. The last guy had a head coach who froze up on the sideline and he said screw it, I'm out. Any chance Love has will not be realized by the current batch of coaches who couldn't fix what was wrong even when they had a reliable qb. If anything, his opportunity is being wasted. It starts at the top, so what will we see at home vs the Rams this week? Anyone want to hazard a guess that it won't be more of the same?

@Pakrz posted:

Tony Mandarich?

Sounds about right, the incredible shrinking man.

@PackLandVA posted:

And you’d have been the first to bitch about any lack of production (see Cobb, Watkins) regardless of whether or not they were brought in as mentors, leaders and on-field coaches. Because that’s what you do.

Oh, the irony.

Jimmy Graham, Devin Funchess, Jace Sternberger, J'Mon Moore, Amari Rodgers, Josiah Degaura, and Sammy Watkins. Wowser what a collection of crap.

Yes, I plead guilty for having noted that your boy Gutey absolutely failed to bring in adequate  receiving threats, among other failures, between 2018 and 2022, thus leaving the Pack's 2023 receiving corps the youngest and least experienced in the NFL by a wide margin.

Meanwhile, you've been there every step of the way to blame everyone but your hero for the teams' issues, because that is what you and your ilk do, protect the FRONT OFFICE from any and all criticism.

That you are now pointing to Gutey's move last offseason to bring in Sammy Watkins in (a lame attempt) to deflect criticism of the current clusterF*** of inexperienced (and possibly untalented) receivers is equal part revealing (because it shows just how desperate and untenable the defense of Gutey has become) and laughable (because no one besides Gutey, maybe his mother, and you and your dwindling band of Gutey fans still pretends that signing Sammy was a good idea).

One person and one person alone is principally responsible for the Pack's collection of grossly inexperienced and inadequate receiving weapons -- your favorite GM Brian Gutekunst.

@Pakrz posted:

I've seen a few mocks that have McCarthy in the top 10.  Franchise QB?

McCarthy and Jim Harbaugh. MIH

Bring Michigans “advance scouts” too

@Artis, no I don't expect anything different vs Rams.

MLF looks lost, last few years he has lost a few quality assistants on O and D while keeping Barry = double loss.

Reporter Mike Clemens suggested MLF is micromanaging his assistants trying to fix the problems at the cost of neglecting his duties as play caller.

He believes Rasul was traded in part because he was too vocal and suggested D failures weren't all  on players (read Joe Barry). Said Packers film crew (for packers.com) was monitoring Rasul for a few weeks but didn't post his comments online, spies?

Clemens said locker room was like morgue Thur, no NRG,  players talking about Douglas as if he died. MLF denied that he controls what players say. But last week after another loss Jaire said he was good, felt good and when pressed said didn't want to "get in trouble." Hmmm.

Do Packers players rally to save their season/ jobs or feel like Gute/mgmt has given up on the year, lose faith in coaches and mail it in?

@SteveLuke posted:

Jimmy Graham, Devin Funchess, Jace Sternberger, J'Mon Moore, Amari Rodgers, Josiah Degaura, and Sammy Watkins. Wowser what a collection of crap.

Yes, I plead guilty for having noted that your boy Gutey absolutely failed to bring in adequate  receiving threats, among other failures, between 2018 and 2022, thus leaving the Pack's 2023 receiving corps the youngest and least experienced in the NFL by a wide margin.

Meanwhile, you've been there every step of the way to blame everyone but your hero for the teams' issues, because that is what you and your ilk do, protect the FRONT OFFICE from any and all criticism.

That you are now pointing to Gutey's move last offseason to bring in Sammy Watkins in (a lame attempt) to deflect criticism of the current clusterF*** of inexperienced (and possibly untalented) receivers is equal part revealing (because it shows just how desperate and untenable the defense of Gutey has become) and laughable (because no one besides Gutey, maybe his mother, and you and your dwindling band of Gutey fans still pretends that signing Sammy was a good idea).

One person and one person alone is principally responsible for the Pack's collection of grossly inexperienced and inadequate receiving weapons -- your favorite GM Brian Gutekunst.

Show me a post where I am a “fan” of Gute, praise his picks or FA signings without merit, or basically defend him.  He’s a GM and he’s made some good moves and some bad moves.

You, however, trumpet the same line over and over again. Your next original thought might be your first. I find it amazing that you’re bringing up MLF’s want/desire for a veteran WR and that Gute has “failed” in bringing one in, only to look back at your weekly bitchfest about Cobb, Watkins, and Lazard. You have no idea what any of those guys brought to the locker room, WR film room, or general camaraderie/interpersonals with the young WRs. But you made it a point last year and during camp to constantly point out their lack of production. Of course, you are just a fan (although I’m not so sure) and will never be accountable for your hot takes.

Like I said, your next original post might be your first. But I’m sure it will be negative and/or about the FRONT OFFICE. Good luck!

Just seems like MLF is throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks. Doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to the offense. We run a set with both Jones & Dillon on the second play of the game, gain 7 yards , and never run it again. Haven''t seen a crossing route, and only one slant that I can remember, in weeks. Appears that he is constantly searching for the perfect play vs. what defense he thinks he is going to get on every play. IMHO, he'd be better off getting the defense in their base defense, don't sub, don't huddle, and  call plays from the LOS ... don't let the defense change looks , personal groups. Have 7-8 plays Love can call. Sick of hearing "we didn't get the look we expected", "I need to call a better play there", etc.

@titmfatied posted:

---

I see that different. The Reed throw was catchable, but I don't see it in any way as great. That and the Watson end zone were belly throws. Imo, He needs to give the receivers a chance to jump up and fight for it. The ball location is making Watson 5'10 instead of 6'5. It's nitpicking but that's the difference for success in NFL level football. If the ball comes in flat it's getting sent to the ground more often than not.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but Watson makes himself a smaller target and doesn't play to his size. He may be a freakish athlete, but he's a terrible receiver.

@FLPACKER posted:

Just seems like MLF is throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks. Doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to the offense.

Agree. If you're trying to predict the future over and over again with anything, (D alignments) and you have no way to adjust, you're pretty much screwed from the start.

Not sure why in Love's 4th season MLF either doesn't have him ready or doesn't trust him to make adjustments/audibles.

MLF definitely seems lost and appears to be crap shooting for a way to make this O competent.

@artis posted:

Some people are saying Love is being put through the crucible. Some are saying it's time to take the training wheels off. Those to me are blatant contradictions. Is MLF dialing it back or is he not?

I made the crucible comment and it was in reference to Gute, not MLF.

@titmfatied posted:

I made the crucible comment and it was in reference to Gute, not MLF.

Gute putting Love through the crucible? I guess it's plausible given the age and inexperience of the roster he's assembled. But wouldn't MLF have some say in simplifying things for his young qb? I'm not sure how people can make comments like Jones and idiot Cowherd did about taking the training wheels off. Do we know this to be the case? How could anyone know when the exact same dysfunction we saw last season has cropped up in such a big way again? I'll admit I have no interest in listening to MLF's generic pressers. But you'd think some part of his "plan" might accidentally slip out on the field each week. Can anyone at all try to relay what exactly it is they're trying to do, or for that matter, what they actually expect their young qb to try to do?

@Maxi54 posted:

Not sure why in Love's 4th season MLF either doesn't have him ready or doesn't trust him to make adjustments/audibles.

Does he not trust Love, or not trust the WRs to adjust to the call? Or both?

@artis posted:

Gute putting Love through the crucible?

The crucible is in reference to giving him the youngest skill position group since the expansion Cleveland browns. It's removing 17,18, and 89 from the roster and seeing if he has the natural leadership in him to pull together a young group instead of deferring to veterans; to earn his team mates respect in practice and the meeting rooms while still holding them accountable. Can he be the voice that rallies the team or gives a guy confidence when he drops the ball. It's the things we don't have an opportunity to see that they might want evaluate. He may very well be showing those unseen things and the results just haven't come yet. But if he isn't showing any of that it's going to raise major concerns.

If he's not showing where we can't see he has an opportunity to inspire team mates on game day with athletic improv. He has to show he's the guy in some way they can build on. It has nothing to do with the pressure of winning and losing right now, imo.  Just show something they can carry over from week to week and build on.

Question to anyone:

Last year, AR had an OLine that wasn’t horrendous (most of the time), Aaron Jones and AJ Dillon played all 17 games, he had veteran TEs for 17 games, and he had Allen Lazard and Randall Cobb (occasionally), both of whom he “trusts”, and he didn’t have a very good season (by his/our standards).

If AR struggled with that offense, how is Love supposed to successful after 7 games with the current offense???

Something to remember about Love is that he just turned 25 years old. There was talk about Levis in here and he is actually only 6 months younger than Love. I think Love's youth gets lost because he's in his 4th season, although his rookie year he had no OTAs or preseason.

@titmfatied posted:

---

The crucible is in reference to giving him the youngest skill position group since the expansion Cleveland browns. It's removing 17,18, and 89 from the roster and seeing if he has the natural leadership in him to pull together a young group instead of deferring to veterans; to earn his team mates respect in practice and the meeting rooms while still holding them accountable. Can he be the voice that rallies the team or gives a guy confidence when he drops the ball. It's the things we don't have an opportunity to see that they might want evaluate. He may very well be showing those unseen things and the results just haven't come yet. But if he isn't showing any of that it's going to raise major concerns.

If he's not showing where we can't see he has an opportunity to inspire team mates on game day with athletic improv. He has to show he's the guy in some way they can build on. It has nothing to do with the pressure of winning and losing right now, imo.  Just show something they can carry over from week to week and build on.

All fair enough. But if you go by Jones and idiot Cowherd in their conversation, they either imply or outright state that the training wheels have yet to come off, and even in that Love is "regressing." Maybe I missed it, but has MLF said either way that the offense has or has not been simplified through the first 7 games?

Quite honestly, if he's being put through the crucible to measure the intangibles, I'd say Love is on a better track than his football performance indicates. The pressure has mounted with each successive game, and while he's part of the reason for failure, he's also been willing to stand in and keep plugging away while maintaining a high level of professionalism on the field and within the building. You might even say it's a trait that is the norm when things are going well, but possibly to his own detriment in stretches like this losing streak. Beyond that, how long did Rodgers bite his tongue in either the McCarthy or MLF situations, before he started airing his grievances in public? I think the answer to that has much more to do with MLF and his glaring flaws being exposed than it speaks to his first year starting qb.

One final question, for you or anyone to postulate: Is there some standard numbers of games that would indicate when the game tends to "slows down" for a younger qb? It seems for many on this board, the fact that this should have all come together for Love after 7 games is much more prevalent than I would have guessed at this point. Is there a magic number?

I would add that what is said about Love struggling to overcome his circumstances, the same can be said for Watson, Doubs, Reed, and Wicks as well, to an extent. Year 3 is when if supposedly clicks for WR and normally you have at least 1 veteran receiver hanging around to lead. I’m not making excuses for these guys, they’re still adults and have to execute, but they’ve been set up to fail in a lot of ways. Gute wants them to get “scars”, but the problem is as much about what’s being asked of these guys as it is what they are/are not doing. Forcing them into key roles when they clearly aren’t ready is a major issue, it was an issue last year. Not sure what MLF and Love are meant to do.

I don't think the bar this year is success, it's showing some promise. I think the lollipop hop and hope throws are the most concerning. Be wrong with conviction at least and put some crazy on it. If he's trying to fit the ball in somewhere tight it's understandable. When 10 goes downfield more often than not it looks desperate and I'm left wondering WTF.

There's enough people with more knowledge of the game than all of us put together that would be able to point out the promise if it was there. JT O'Sullivan remarked how 10 was passing over easy opportunities and making it harder than it needed to be vs the Donkeys. He's made a video on Love seemingly every week of the season and then last week was crickets. I'm guessing he did him a favor by not putting more of a spotlight on his performance.

Love's in a tough spot. We're going to get to see how much fight he has in him. I can't imagine the Rams roster has much more experience than ours. Especially if Stafford is out.

Was Love's performance last week really that bad? Sure he missed a few throws but there were more drops than bad throws.

Love has shown, against trying times, has shown he has the demeanor to be an NFL QB and a leader. He's shown mobility and arm strength. He needs to put together accuracy and vision of the field. I hope the accuracy improves as he gets better protection and the game slows down for him. That has put him in panic mode a bit.

@PackerRick posted:

Who do you think would be playing QB right now if the Packers hadn't drafted Love? Surely you would have been against drafting any QB when we were one skilled player away. And I still don't see anybody on offense playing any better. Is he really holding this offense back? He's our #2 rusher and it's not by choice.

Who gives a shit who would be playing QB now.   That 1st and 4th could have contributed to a Super Bowl.    

That said, Clifford or any other late round pick could be 2-5 right now.   Even better, they could be 0-7.    OR…. We could not be in cap hell if Gute traded #12 to Denver and we have a mid range vet playing QB.

@Grave Digger posted:

I would add that what is said about Love struggling to overcome his circumstances, the same can be said for Watson, Doubs, Reed, and Wicks as well, to an extent. Year 3 is when if supposedly clicks for WR and normally you have at least 1 veteran receiver hanging around to lead. I’m not making excuses for these guys, they’re still adults and have to execute, but they’ve been set up to fail in a lot of ways. Gute wants them to get “scars”, but the problem is as much about what’s being asked of these guys as it is what they are/are not doing. Forcing them into key roles when they clearly aren’t ready is a major issue, it was an issue last year. Not sure what MLF and Love are meant to do.

AKA.. Gute fucked up.  His master plan for life after Rodgers is majorly flawed.

@PackerRick posted:

Was Love's performance last week really that bad? Sure he missed a few throws but there were more drops than bad throws.

Love has shown, against trying times, has shown he has the demeanor to be an NFL QB and a leader. He's shown mobility and arm strength. He needs to put together accuracy and vision of the field. I hope the accuracy improves as he gets better protection and the game slows down for him. That has put him in panic mode a bit

Yes, it was.   Late and behind.    

I cannot remember the last time he hit a WR running in stride.   The closest thing to it is the pass down the right sideline to Reed where he dove and made a fingertip grab late  in the game we won.