@BrainDed posted:. We could not be in cap hell if Gute traded #12 to Denver and we have a mid range vet playing QB.
How many times does it have to be said Murphy is in charge and blocked that trade? Do you think Gute wanted to keep AR after he drafted his replacement and they became such good friends?
Most revealing quote in Gutey's presser was that he considers Love to be a "first-year player". They gave him a two-year deal for a reason.
@titmfatied posted:The crucible is in reference to giving him the youngest skill position group since the expansion Cleveland browns. It's removing 17,18, and 89 from the roster and seeing if he has the natural leadership in him to pull together a young group instead of deferring to veterans; to earn his team mates respect in practice and the meeting rooms while still holding them accountable. Can he be the voice that rallies the team or gives a guy confidence when he drops the ball. It's the things we don't have an opportunity to see that they might want evaluate. He may very well be showing those unseen things and the results just haven't come yet. But if he isn't showing any of that it's going to raise major concerns.
If he's not showing where we can't see he has an opportunity to inspire team mates on game day with athletic improv. He has to show he's the guy in some way they can build on. It has nothing to do with the pressure of winning and losing right now, imo. Just show something they can carry over from week to week and build on.
That sounds nice, but in reality it looks like cheap sophistry to mask:
1. Gutekunst is an idiot who has set players up to fail.
-------and/or-----
2. His plans of tanking last year weren't good enough and he stepped it up a notch.
@BrainDed posted:Who gives a shit who would be playing QB now. That 1st and 4th could have contributed to a Super Bowl.
That said, Clifford or any other late round pick could be 2-5 right now. Even better, they could be 0-7. OR…. We could not be in cap hell if Gute traded #12 to Denver and we have a mid range vet playing QB.
It's obvious you have a different goal. You want a team that goes all in and wins once (maybe). I'd rather have a team that is competitive every season. People with your philosophy have a tendency to disappear once the team falls off the cliff. If this team was 0-7 we wouldn't be having this discussion.
@PackerRick posted:How many times does it have to be said Murphy is in charge and blocked that trade? Do you think Gute wanted to keep AR after he drafted his replacement and they became such good friends?
How many times are you going to fail to prove your theory. Cite a source or it’s nothing more than speculation
@PackerRick posted:It's obvious you have a different goal. You want a team that goes all in and wins once (maybe). I'd rather have a team that is competitive every season. People with your philosophy have a tendency to disappear once the team falls off the cliff. If this team was 0-7 we wouldn't be having this discussion.
The first and 4th would still be here dumb ass. I didn’t suggest trading a 1st and 4th for a 38 year old LT.
@BrainDed posted:How many times are you going to fail to prove your theory. Cite a source or it’s nothing more than speculation
Murphy is the boss. Have you ever heard of the chain of command? If you think anybody is going to trade Rodgers without Murphy's OK guess again. I wouldn't even be surprised if the BOD was involved.
Now prove your "theory".
@BrainDed posted:The first and 4th would still be here dumb ass. I didn’t suggest trading a 1st and 4th for a 38 year old LT.
The first was still here. The 4th was a throw in to move up a few spots in the first round. Only one draft pick was traded. Pretty bad when a dumb ass has to explain that to you.
@BrainDed posted:Yes, it was. Late and behind.
I cannot remember the last time he hit a WR running in stride. The closest thing to it is the pass down the right sideline to Reed where he dove and made a fingertip grab late in the game we won.
This is the problem I see with Love. Yes his receivers aren't doing him any favors, and yes those receivers should be catching balls that are close enough to them to be caught (they are paid to do so), but they're dropping them.
But even if they did get caught, Love is not putting the ball in a spot to get YAC. Even if the receivers didn't drop anything, they also don't have the opportunity to get further down the field on those completions. That's a problem.
@PackerRick posted:It's obvious you have a different goal. You want a team that goes all in and wins once (maybe). I'd rather have a team that is competitive every season. People with your philosophy have a tendency to disappear once the team falls off the cliff. If this team was 0-7 we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Tampa Bay and the LA Rams went all in and won Super Bowls in 2020 and 2021, respectively, while the Packers selected their QB of the future.
Tampa Bay is currently 3-4. The Rams are 3-5. Neither is all that competitive in 2023.
Green Bay is currently 2-5.
The Packers did not go all in to win a Super Bowl and they are not competitive now.
Good fans know that GB management did it right when it refused to go all in with Rodgers at QB and that it is doing it right now by fielding an uncompetitive team.
@SteveLuke posted:Tampa Bay and the LA Rams went all in and won Super Bowls in 2020 and 2021, respectively, while the Packers selected their QB of the future.
Tampa Bay is currently 3-4. The Rams are 3-5. Neither is all that competitive in 2023.
Green Bay is currently 2-5.
The Packers did not go all in to win a Super Bowl and they are not competitive now.
Good fans know that GB management did it right when it refused to go all in with Rodgers at QB and that it is doing it right now by fielding an uncompetitive team.
Both of those teams went all in by adding a franchise QBs. Are you saying for the Packers to go all in it would only require taking an offensive player with the 30th pick in the draft? Even in hindsight you'll have a hard time finding a player that would be considered going all in.
@PackerRick posted:How many times does it have to be said Murphy is in charge and blocked that trade? Do you think Gute wanted to keep AR after he drafted his replacement and they became such good friends?
There is no info out there that suggests any trade was blocked. It is all speculation. It could have happened, but if Murphy wasn’t going to be the one to trade away a HOF MVP QB (as has been suggested here before), then why would he even allow Gute to negotiate such a deal?
@PackerRick posted:Both of those teams went all in by adding a franchise QBs. Are you saying for the Packers to go all in it would only require taking an offensive player with the 30th pick in the draft? Even in hindsight you'll have a hard time finding a player that would be considered going all in.
The Bucs went all in by adding, among other players in their SB year, QB Tom Brady ... WR Antonio Brown ... RB Leonard Fournette and ... TE Rob Gronkowski.
The Rams went all in by adding, among other players in their SB year, QB Matthew Stafford ... and WR Odell Bekham, Jr. ... and DE Von Miller.
The Rams traded multiple 1st round picks to obtain veteran players (Stafford and Jalen Ramsey) in going all out to win a Super Bowl.
The Kansas City Chiefs have likewise traded multiple 1st round picks to obtain veteran players in winning multiple Super Bowls.
The notion that the Pack using its 1st and 4th round picks on a backup QB in 2020 and never once trading a pick for a veteran player while the team was still competitve somehow meant GB went all in remains patently ridiculous.
Even in hindsight.
And surely you are not suggesting that, despite refusing to go all in to win a Super Bowl, the 2-5 2023 Green Bay Packers are more somehow more competitive in 2023 than the 3-4 Bucs and 3-5 Rams.
Have you ever heard of the salary cap?
It all started in TB by signing Brady, and taking less money, and he recruited those players. That wasn't happening with ARod.
The Rams had the benefit of having a starting QB to include in the trade. So who should we acquire in a trade and what did we have of value to give up?
Both teams turned their teams around with a QB, we already had one.
I never heard anybody claim the Packers weren't going all in by signing players they couldn't afford. I only heard complaints about drafting a QB instead of a skill position player that they thought could help Rodgers immediately.
@13X posted:There is no info out there that suggests any trade was blocked. It is all speculation. It could have happened, but if Murphy wasn’t going to be the one to trade away a HOF MVP QB (as has been suggested here before), then why would he even allow Gute to negotiate such a deal?
I don't think Murphy could block Gute from taking calls from any GM.
Remember, my response was to Brainded claiming Gute is to one that wouldn't make the trade. Where there is smoke, there is fire concerning Rodgers to Denver. If anybody blocked the trade it would be Murphy, not the guy that drafted Rodgers' replacement 2 years earlier.
Mark Murphy this morning called Jordan Love everything you could want in a player — “a hard worker, smart, humble, a leader respected by his teammates” — and that the franchise still very much believes in him and his continued development.
— zach jacobson (@itszacharyj) November 4, 2023
Full story: https://t.co/zIxjYlbg8E pic.twitter.com/JDgM3rU51k
So in other words he’s gonna get benched in short order
@vitaflo posted:This is the problem I see with Love. Yes his receivers aren't doing him any favors, and yes those receivers should be catching balls that are close enough to them to be caught (they are paid to do so), but they're dropping them.
But even if they did get caught, Love is not putting the ball in a spot to get YAC. Even if the receivers didn't drop anything, they also don't have the opportunity to get further down the field on those completions. That's a problem.
The very same was the case with Rodgers last year. Lazy throws and last second off target spots. The difference is Rodgers had proven his accuracy and for whatever reason that strength turned into a weakness. Most likely because he wanted out.
@PackLandVA posted:Question to anyone:
Last year, AR had an OLine that wasn’t horrendous (most of the time), Aaron Jones and AJ Dillon played all 17 games, he had veteran TEs for 17 games, and he had Allen Lazard and Randall Cobb (occasionally), both of whom he “trusts”, and he didn’t have a very good season (by his/our standards).If AR struggled with that offense, how is Love supposed to successful after 7 games with the current offense???
He wrecked his thumb in London against the Giants. End of story.
I for one found it very telling that they preferred playing AR with a bad thumb over Love.
We need an executive decision around here and we need it now.
Ban the word "crucible" for six months then see what happens.
@D J posted:He wrecked his thumb in London against the Giants. End of story.
I for one found it very telling that they preferred playing AR with a bad thumb over Love.
Who is going to bench Rodgers? If he says he can play he's playing.
Or maybe, just maybe, it wasn't as bad as we're hearing. If you look at his numbers before and after there isn't much difference. He never came close to a 300 yard game and averaged 217 a game.
"they" didn't have a choice. Rodgers was playing.....period.
It’s a better narrative to say the Packers chose to stick with their injured, ineffective HoF QB than to go with Love. Especially in this thread.
Pretty sure 12 in a wheelchair gives the Packers a better shot at winning than what we have right now.
@PackerRick posted:Both of those teams went all in by adding a franchise QBs. Are you saying for the Packers to go all in it would only require taking an offensive player with the 30th pick in the draft? Even in hindsight you'll have a hard time finding a player that would be considered going all in.
They could have traded the pick for a player in a trade. DeAndre Hopkins, Darious Slay, Trent Williams were all traded for picks that year. We could have went after any of them with our draft capital but didn't.
This is why I get so annoyed by the "we could have had X in the draft". Teams who are actually going all in don't do so by drafting rookies. They get vets either as FA's or in a trade. A rookie wouldn't have put us over the top. DeHop might have.
What could the Packers trade that would have landed Hopkins? It's easy to say add a player but nobody is giving impact players away unless they get serious compensation and Houston didn't just get draft picks for him. And they still have to fit the player under the cap. Rodgers wasn't playing for a discount like Brady did.
This is from Gilbert Brown. The last sentence is what should alarm us.
.........................................
In his weekly podcast “Go Dads Go with Gilbert Brown,” the Packers Hall of Famer was asked if he believes Love has done enough to earn a contract extension from the Packers. He replied:
“Yeah. He has. Because, you know, of the situation. You know what I’m saying? You can see glimpses of what it’s going to be.
“But for putting him in the situation that he is in, his hands are tied, man. I mean, receivers not running the right routes, not catching. Offensive line not blocking. Can’t run the ball. Sometimes play-calling is questionable.
“No, I would not put any blame on that kid.”
Brown goes on to say that if this was the way Love was playing in his second year as a starter, then he would be concerned. But given that it is his first year and the flashes he has shown, Brown believes Love has earned the opportunity to have the Packers build a team around him, and not just a team of rookies and inexperienced second-year players.
Brett Favre had a great offensive line and Sterling Sharpe to throw to when he got into trouble. Aaron Rodgers had a great offensive line and Donald Driver and Greg Jennings to help him as a first-year starter.
Love does not have any of those weapons, and there is really no guarantee he will have them in 2024 either.
@vitaflo posted:T
But even if they did get caught, Love is not putting the ball in a spot to get YAC. Even if the receivers didn't drop anything, they also don't have the opportunity to get further down the field on those completions. That's a problem.
YAC? If they don't catch the ball there is no YAC anyway. That's a bigger problem than hitting a guy in stride.
Life isn't fair. Love doesn't get the same setup as 12 or 4. He also has a lot less pressure than 12 did when he took over the reigns. Rodgers had an active hate campaign against him his entire first season after they jettisoned a QB that took them to the NFC Championship Game.
4 had the pressure of washing the 20 year stink off this franchise and helping to pull it out of futility. He had to prove he was worth the 1st they traded after a year of him doing absolutely nothing in ATL.
They both figured out a way to show their talent. They weren't anything close to their hall of fame level play their first season but they gave you enough to want to see it through.
Everyone's circumstances are their circumstances. It's about fighting, scrapping, and finding a way. The next start at QB isn't easy for any of them. Not Burrow, not Mahomes, not Allen, or Stroud.
Love has to find a way to lead the team to better results than what they've shown this year. It's not bad compared to 12 or 4 or Mahomes or Burrow or Stroud. It's bad compared to the bare minimum for him to retain his job as a starter. It has to get better.
@D J posted:He wrecked his thumb in London against the Giants. End of story.
I for one found it very telling that they preferred playing AR with a bad thumb over Love.
I don't think that is unusual.
TOG started/played many games he shouldn't have because of injury.
One year was a thumb, another was an ankle.
There may be an argument over whether that gave the Packers "the best chance to win", but starting QBs playing through injuries isn't unheard of.
Once a QB reaches a high level of status, coaches are going to defer to them if they want to try to play.
@PackerRick posted:What could the Packers trade that would have landed Hopkins? It's easy to say add a player but nobody is giving impact players away unless they get serious compensation and Houston didn't just get draft picks for him.
They did, Houston got a 2nd rounder and a player. Who says packers couldn't have given their 1st and 4th (what we gave up for Love) to get Hopkins? If WR was our biggest need that year and was what was separating us from winning a championship (like everyone on the internet constantly says), then that trade would have been an "all in" move to do it.
Keep in mind Hopkins had an All Pro year that year, over 1400 yards and 6 TDs.
This is a 2022 Aaron Rodgers chart pic.twitter.com/ikKYh2d8Yx
— Peter Bukowski (@Peter_Bukowski) November 6, 2023
He played better. Let’s not get giddy quite yet.
The OL played better, the Packers had a running game, and the WRs didn't drop the ball. Maybe that's why he played better. Despite two lost fumbles, and two 4th down penalties that were in essence turnovers, his teammates helped him some instead of hurting him constantly.
We should be more excited about fewer mistakes from the offense because that was the difference yesterday.
If Heath helps out and makes that catch over the middle that makes Love 21-26 (it was a poor throw, but it was catchable) and he is over 80% completion percentage on the day. Not too shabby.
Yesterday, especially the second half, was a step in the right direction for Jordan and I am cheering for him.
The biggest Question remains the deep ball.
If he gets that fixed the scoring will go up and the passing lanes will open up.
If he does not get that fixed, we'll be talking about who are next QB will be.
I don't think Love played much differently yesterday than in the past. He simply had teammates carry their weight for a change. I still say he's the Packers best offensive player this season. Nobody seems to remember the successful plays marred by penalties, drops, and mental mistakes.
And as far as deep balls, it's been 4-5 years since we had a QB that could consistently throw a deep ball.
