New DC is Mike Pettine

From the Lombardi clip, "the #1 thing you have to do on D against Shanahan's outside zone run is set the edge, they couldn't do it."

I asked this a couple days ago.  How are the Smiths vs. the run?  Someone said they are just fine vs. the run.  Doesn't look like it.  Especially not vs. SF.  They did not set the edge.  This was a problem in their run D all season but no other team went after them the way SF did.  Ketchman had a comment on his blog this morning.  GB has a problem on the edges when it comes to stopping the run because the Smiths either "can't or won't set the edge".  He thinks they're exclusively pass rushers and not 3-down players.

I don't have access nor the time to review tape (deleted Sunday's game) on them but this is two sources who know a lot about football saying the same thing.  I know, I know.  They're the least of the D's worries.  But that doesn't make the problem go away.  Especially if we're trying to figure out how to beat SF.

Matt LaFleur asked if he's sticking with DC Mike Pettine: "We're still working through everything, just trying to evaluate everything."

— Matt Schneidman (@mattschneidman) January 22, 2020

Interesting.

michiganjoe posted:

Matt LaFleur asked if he's sticking with DC Mike Pettine: "We're still working through everything, just trying to evaluate everything."

— Matt Schneidman (@mattschneidman) January 22, 2020

Interesting.

MLF on the Championship game...

“We were out coached”
“We didn’t show the energy and effort”
“We knew they were going to run the ball and we couldn’t stop it”

Oof

Really glad to hear that from MLF. As bad as anything Dom put on the field and a complete and thorough evaluation is warranted.

Mike Smith on the staff...if Pettine gets the boot maybe Smitty gets the call...

I think it's oversimplifying things to say they ran outside zone runs + the way to defeat outside zone runs is to set an edge = Smiths are bad run defenders. Couple examples:

Example 1: Mostert's first TD. 3rd and 8, seems like a passing situation. Packers show a  Dime look, 1-4 front with Campbell low 5 yds off the ball on the weak side. They had Martinez lined up in a 9 on the weak side, KC in a 3 on the weak side, Z. Smith standing in a 1, Fackrell standing in a 3 on the strong side, and P. Smith in a 9 on the strong side. Packers are wholeheartedly expecting pass, DBs are in press. 49ers run a draw trap (maybe an RPO, I don't think so though), pulling the backside Guard to trap Fackrell, P. Smith is upfield attacking the QB and doesn't have the angle on the back, LT moves to the 2nd level and destroys Campbell, and there's no strong side support at the 2nd level. Safeties are in cover 2 and are too deep and slow to recognize what's happening, Savage takes a bad angle and misses the tackle. 35 yard TD run on 3rd and 8.

Example 2: Mostert's 2nd TD. 2nd and 5 from the GB 9 yard line. Kind of an interesting defensive alignment. Packers are in Nickel with a single high Safety (Savage) with Amos on the LOS head up over Kittle. They show 2-4 look with Lowry on the strong side in a 2, KC in a 2 on the weak side, Fackrell standing in a wide 9 on the strong side, P. Smith standing in a wide 9 on the weak side, and Z. Smith roving but ends up standing off the ball in a 0 and Martinez 5 yards off the ball. This isn't a zone run, pretty simple off tackle run except they actually pull the RT who demolishes Fackrell who got sucked inside hard. Kittle blocks down backside on Amos who is out of the play. Martinez takes an absolutely disgusting angle and is easily shed. Savage takes a bad angle and gets chipped by the WR enough to allow Mostert to slip by for the TD.  

Example 3: Moster's long run late Q2. 1st and 10 from the 49er 31. Packers are in Nickel with a 3-3 front. Martinez and Campbell are 6 yards off the ball, Lowry is in a 3 on the weakside, Lancaster in a 1, Adams in a 3 on the strong side, P. Smith standing in a 9 on the weak side, Z. Smith standing in a 9 on the strong side. Safeties are in a Cover 2 look, King in press, Jaire in Off 6 yards off the ball. This is a simple outside zone run to the strong side. Z. Smith sets a pretty solid edge working against Kittle and forces the run inside, Adams gets driven out of the play by the RG, Campbell takes a horrible angle and ends up forcing Mostert further inside, the RT gets enough of a piece of Martinez to get him out of the play, Savage and Amos take terrible angles and dive at Moster's knees (missing obviously) and Jaire has to run him down from behind. Great example of terrible pursuit angles, slow reaction and inability to shed blockers at the 2nd and 3rd levels. 

There are multiple examples just like these. Mostert's 3rd TD had perfectly fine edges set by the Smiths, it was an inside zone to the weak side, but Lowry got absolutely destroyed and driven so far back that the cutback was so easy and open. Martinez got pushed away, Savage's guessed wrong on Mostert's 3rd level cut and just whiffed, and Amos just somehow whiffed completely. Mostert's 4th TD was a blown edge containment by Fackrell. It's not to say the Smith's played a perfect game, they both got fooled on reverses (on the same drive), but it's not correct to say they're poor run defenders or pass rushers only or even had a bad game against SF. I think they're both strong run defenders who may get over aggressive at times, but I think the plays they make outweigh any mistakes they've made in containment. The issues against SF were 1) huge mental mistakes 2) interior DL issues after taking a pounding 3) 2nd level defenders just unable to get it done and 4) 3rd level defenders being undisciplined. 

Boris posted:

Fucking idiotic. Really?? Fire Pettine...

Anyone that believes that shit is fucking Stoooooopid

Yes. Really.
Why is it idiotic? Pettine is not MLF's guy. 
That defense looked very ordinary again and listening to former players rip Pettine should tell you something.

Excellent analysis GD

Looks like BFI is re-emerging as an issue.

that is not exactly a vote of confidence for abm.  i have a feeling he could be gone and replaced by a young type coach - more in mlf's style but on defense...whether that is kris richard (who i guess they know and worked together) whether that is mike smith...need some juice maybe...aggression, we did not blitz much, maybe that is by design, maybe mlf wants to change that...we will know as soon as tomorrow. I think its good that he said they will talk about it as a group, him and murphy anyways.  i kind of like the way the leadership system is rolling out, with mlf not being experienced, more educated opinions is better than not.  wasn't sure at the beginning but seems to be doing ok...can't argue with 14-4...

Love Kris Richard

Grave Digger posted:

The issues against SF were 1) huge mental mistakes 2) interior DL issues after taking a pounding 3) 2nd level defenders just unable to get it done and 4) 3rd level defenders being undisciplined. 

Floors me they paid Lowry as much as they did. He makes plays from time to time, but a lot of the time he's being pushed backwards so fast he looks like he's on roller skates.

The only other option on the roster is Montravious Adams who either hasn't been healthy enough to play, or hasn't won the trust to see minutes.

Pettine seemed to have studs on the DL when he was with the Jets and Browns. If improving speed with ILB is a priority, getting a solid battery mate to line up next to Clark has to be up there also. Guys like Leonard Williams and Shaq Lawson are going to be available, probably in the $8M-$12M a year salary. Not sure this is the best draft for DE but we shall see.

Link

"I just didn't feel like we played with the same urgency, the same tenacity, the same toughness. We didn't set the edge the same as we had been earlier this season. It's disappointing because it's not like we didn't know what they were going to try to do. We knew exactly what they were going to try to do. We knew they were going to run the football ... and for them to be able to do that was extremely disappointing, and I just didn't think we played with the same effort as what I had seen earlier in the season."

Well, he isn't going to get his buddy Saleh but I bet he's asking for advice from his friend.

Henry posted:

Well, he isn't going to get his buddy Saleh but I bet he's asking for advice from his friend.

Including Kyle Shannan, who supposedly does not think much of Pettine. 

Henry posted:

Well, he isn't going to get his buddy Saleh but I bet he's asking for advice from his friend.

"Keep doin' what you're doin' Matty! Stay the course! Stick to your guns!"

Jelly posted:

Boris posted:

Fucking idiotic. Really?? Fire Pettine...

Anyone that believes that shit is fucking Stoooooopid

Yes. Really.
Why is it idiotic? Pettine is not MLF's guy. 
That defense looked very ordinary again and listening to former players rip Pettine should tell you something.

Because at the time it was posted it was right after the game. 

Kneejerk reactions are rarely correct. 

Context.....it matters. 

I don't want to see Pettine fired because starting over with another new defensive scheme takes time. 

No team did to the Packers what the Niners did all year long. Not even the Chargers. Packer defense played pretty damn well vs. the Vikings & Bears. Everyone except the Niners. They allowed less than 20 PPG. The defense doesn't suck but SF knew exactly how to attack it & had the personnel to pull it off. 

Golly gee willikers.....could it have been the fact Kyle & other coaches have worked with Pettine in the past??? Hmmm.....I wonder. 🙄

Jelly posted:

Boris posted:

Fucking idiotic. Really?? Fire Pettine...

Anyone that believes that shit is fucking Stoooooopid

Yes. Really.
Why is it idiotic? Pettine is not MLF's guy. 
That defense looked very ordinary again and listening to former players rip Pettine should tell you something.

Remove Pettine's name and replace it with Capers' name and you have the same arguments being made on this board 7 years ago. Pettine hasn't done anything that makes him untouchable.

michiganjoe posted:

Link

"I just didn't feel like we played with the same urgency, the same tenacity, the same toughness. We didn't set the edge the same as we had been earlier this season. It's disappointing because it's not like we didn't know what they were going to try to do. We knew exactly what they were going to try to do. We knew they were going to run the football ... and for them to be able to do that was extremely disappointing, and I just didn't think we played with the same effort as what I had seen earlier in the season."

OUCH! He's gone! Of course, MLF is not blameless in this. He is responsible for motivating the whole team, not just the offense. If the defense wasn't motivated that's on him.

The Packer defense allowed less than 20 PPG.  A shade worse (19.56 to 19.375) than SF defense which has SEVEN (7) 1st rounders on it. 

Pettine isn't 100% to blame here but I would like to know why he didn't try anything different until the 4th Quarter. 

Something ain't right & as I said earlier Shanarat knew exactly how to attack Pettines formations. 

PPG was good. We need to have the yardage fall in line as well. Pass defense matters. Need to get the rush defense in line too. It all matters. At least, it does if the goal is to win the whole thing. Everyone in the world seemed to know what the Niners would do except Pettine. Why? Why were the LBs still peeling upfield to rush the passer one first down well into the 2nd half?

Pettine deserves a lot of the blame IMO but they are far superior to GB in talent as well. I think that's pretty obvious.

A wise man once said to me.....

"Players not plays"

They also ran the ball down the Vikings throat & purple pukes couldn't stop it either.  

KC run defense sucks too, so no reason to believe KC will stop it.

I think San Fran is just a bad match-up for the Pack. Just like they were in the Colin Kaep days.

Regarding Pettine, I'm indifferent. I will be fine if he comes back but also would understand if MLF want HIS guy.

https://www.12up.com/posts/pac...a-shock-01dz321jgpn1

If they do get rid of Pettine & go with a guy like Kris Richards who has ties to MLF, at least Kris Richards plays SF competitively.

chickenboy posted:

I think San Fran is just a bad match-up for the Pack. Just like they were in the Colin Kaep days.

Regarding Pettine, I'm indifferent. I will be fine if he comes back but also would understand if MLF want HIS guy.

Same here. He's done nothing special, but his defenses having sucked either.

Goalline posted: 

...Of course, MLF is not blameless in this. He is responsible for motivating the whole team, not just the offense. If the defense wasn't motivated that's on him.

If players at this level with championships at stake can't motivate themselves, they need to go play for the Loins. 
Or Browns.

Well, it appears we have too many Loins and Bores type players on our team. Someone is to blame for that.

I want to know who thought Redmond was a better option than RAven Greene to cover Kittle.

They didn't even throw to him except once. 

I want to know who thought rushing the passer was a good defense for stopping the run. 

The bottom line is MLF did not hire Pettine.  He was a holdover from the previous regime and honestly he does deserve some heat for how they played against the Niners, not to mention other teams. 

They added a number of good players and free agents from last year and were healthy most of the year yet still gave up a lot of yards.   Yes, allowing 20PPG isn’t bad but look a little further at some of their games. 

Matt Moore had a QB rating of 107 against them. Carson Wentz was 113 with a banged up squad.  Rivers picked them apart with a 108 rating.  Teams with good QBs or good offenses gave them plenty of trouble.  They gave up 120 yards per game on the ground.   That’s atrocious. 

The “SF gave up almost as many points on D” argument doesn’t make much sense either when you look at who the Niners played this year.  Saints. 2 against the Hawks and Rams.  The Bucs and Falcons and Ravens.  All teams in the top half of the league in points scored.   Meanwhile, the Packers played a lot of teams in the bottom half of the league in points scored- see Chicago, Denver, Oakland, Washington, the Chargers, Panthers, Giants, and the Loins. 

The way I see it they didn’t make a big enough improvement considering who they added and how healthy they were.  Yes they could use more talent.  But the preparations and schemes left something to be desired as well. 

The Packers defense ranked below teams like the Denver Broncos, Indianapolis Colts and New York Jets during the regular season. Frankly, that's just not good enough.

Mike Pettine will return as Packers defensive coordinator, sources told ESPN.com. He met with coach Matt LaFleur after LaFleur’s season wrap-up press conference on Wednesday and they’re moving forward together for Year 2. 

— Rob Demovsky (@RobDemovsky) January 22, 2020

They were 9th in points though and 4th overall in turnovers forced. Those are truly the stats that matter in the end. No one would care about SF's 250 rushing yards if they only ended up with 19 points to show for it and a loss. Did anyone notice Rodgers was 31/39 for 326 yards and 2 TD? No, because it doesn't really matter. Without that garbage time INT he would have had a 107 rating against a REALLY good defense. That's irrelevant though. 

Packers were opportunistic on getting turnovers early in the season. That waned as the season went on.

Need to get back to that production model.

michiganjoe posted:

Mike Pettine will return as Packers defensive coordinator, sources told ESPN.com. He met with coach Matt LaFleur after LaFleur’s season wrap-up press conference on Wednesday and they’re moving forward together for Year 2. 

— Rob Demovsky (@RobDemovsky) January 22, 2020

well if that is a fact, which it sounds legit...i would get abm's replacement on staff in the wings in case he farts again this year.  so if kris richard, or whoever would come onboard after abm, bring him in to be 'def passing coordinator' or whatever, then do it...mlf has to be in a 'running ground' start if he lets abm go.  not a lot of time to retool if we want to make a run with ar12

The turnovers didn't come against SF because they passed the ball EIGHT times.

Hard to get INT's and strip sacks when you only have 8 opportunities all game long.   

The concerning part is that teams will attack them exclusively via the ground going forward and if you do that you remove our best players from the game plan.   Smith pass rush and young CB's.     They gotta get a partner for Clark and a ILB to ensure teams have to pass the ball into the strength of the D more than 8 times. 

So the blueprint is to run the ball. I guess all the teams will go wildcat. Qb could be inactive.

Glad MLF made the decision quickly...this thing could have dragged on a la McVince. 

He's coming back, now focus on how to fix what's broken.

Most teams won’t be able to replicate this gameplan for the same reason that teams haven’t been able to replicate the ZBS under a Shannahan. Also Kyle Shannahan was exceptional with situational play calling, there are almost zero play callers who have the same size balls. This won’t happen again unless we’re up against a similar caliber offense and play caller (i.e. Andy Reid, Josh McDaniels, Sean McVay, Greg Roman, etc.).