Speed was an issue, but it wasn't THE issue last year...Randall Cobb has 4.4 speed just like Janis. Abby and Adams have 4.5 speed, just like Jordy. We had players who could run, but defenses were challenging them so fiercely and aggressively that there was nothing open. When a defense plays with no fear of your passing game then the offense will either demolish them or be completely ineffective. It wasn't that CBs were faster, receivers don't get open ONLY because of speed, they get open because they know where their going and defenses don't react fast enough. Defenses weren't reacting, they were forcing our receiver to go where they wanted and our WRs couldn't find any open spaces.
You would be hard pressed to find any recent NFL team that had three skill position players as slow as RR, Lacy, & Jones on the roster at the same time, as we did last year.
Once the OL started getting dinged up and it was apparent Lacy was underperforming, D's also stopped fearing the run. It was a lot easier to press our WR's and flood the passing lanes when you don't have to bring an 8th guy in the box. I remember comments during games where we couldn't run vs. 7 in the box. It's never just one thing.
We use to have an abundance of #2 receivers. We now seemingly have an abundance of #3's until they prove otherwise.
titmfatied posted:We use to have an abundance of #2 receivers. We now seemingly have an abundance of #3's until they prove otherwise.
More like #4 receivers. And don't get me started about Lacy...
Many posters are right. Speed at WR was not the issue it was not getting open and drops!
Hungry5 posted:PackerPatrick posted:I wonder if Janis! can move to safety? He CAN tackle.
Right, because the Packers need safety help.
As for the starters I agree with you Hungry5. But as a backup like Goodson is. It might take a while but free up a spot for the WR's group and have him play ST as a "Safety" type STer
FLPACKER posted:Will they keep Janis solely for STs?
GD's take seems pretty realistic and considering the amount of question marks at the position I think it truly all depends on how solid/worthless Adams is. If Adams continues on the same ****ty path I don't see how they could overlook Janis just a ST/bit player like Bush was. There is no doubt he's a hell of a gunner and holding onto a ****ty Adams hoping he improves basically hobbles two positions.
FLPACKER posted:Will they keep Janis solely for STs?
Yes. If they kept Jarrett Bush all those years....they will keep Janis. It's called the "Bush Effect".....besides, he has pictures of TT and MM in a hot tub.
PackerPatrick posted:DH13 posted:Yes, let's cut them both based on a week and a half of TC.
yes that and all of last year. (NO PROGRESS)
Janis produces...IF he plays.
How in the hell can you produce if they don't play you?
DuhVante practices better than Janis but doesn't come through in games. His only "real" production goes back to when he was under everyone's radar and he was schemed open because nobody was covering him. Otherwise...he has no record of showing up for games...and worst of all...he quit last year on multiple plays...bad body language, moping ect. He's not going to magically start playing in games...if he could, he would. He can't...he's a half azzed practice star...big deal. All hat...no cattle in a competitive game environment.
Janis! admittedly doesn't practice well...never has. But he has ALWAYS produced in games ...when given the chance to play. Further more...he's NEVER been set up for success. Play him in preseason games or playoff games against the best defense and world class competition...make him go up for impossible odds plays...and yet he still produced the times he was given a real chance to play.
Some players just don't practice well...they run on adrenaline, saavy and athleticism.
Max McGee didn't practice well...or sleep...or take care of himself but he was also one of those guys that can turn it on when needed.
The Packers are going to be a little on the desperate side with WR...whether people want to admit it or not.
Jordy ...you can't count on anything for sure yet...and it could be much worse than we think...taking the better part of this whole season to really come back into form...or not be the old Jordy at all. Based on what happened to Monty...we can't trust any of the B.S. they tell us...it's just like listening to a Presidential press conference. Blah blah blah...Monty is looking better...next thing you know he's having microfracture surgery. Now we hear the same type of song and dance with Jordy...oh he had a hiccup. A hiccup? Ruh Roh...now I'm worried.
Cobb is Cobb...very good in his role...but lacking without the straw to stir his drink.
So that then leaves us with #3 ...and that is completely up in the air...we don't even know if there is a guy we can depend on to catch the ball...let alone show up or run the right routes.
Hell...Geronimo is in this mix...he really is. And I say that as a proud Native American. Oh man will we have fun around here yelling Geronimo!!! I just have a feeling...after I smoked some peyote...a vision really. Geronimo is going to make it.
Between DuhVante and Janis!....In the end it's going to be Janis because of ST and...you have to go with upside where you have actually seen it in games....with DuhVante there just is no upside shown...virtually nothing from him since a couple of lucky games when nobody bothered to cover him. Well woopty doo...that doesn't mean he can do it against world class competition like Janis has shown in toughtest environment possible. An away playoff game vs. the best defense in the NFL and a world class DB.
Any way you look at it...the Packers are stumbling in kind of weak at WR...I rather doubt it's going to be a whole lot better than last year...once teams get the blue print straight ...it's going to be shutdown city with this injured, hiccuped knee, malingering bunch of over rated practice squad teasers.
Right now...Cobb is all we can count on....Cobb!
I just speak the truth...some here don't like that. Too bad...I said absolutely nothing that isn't true.
Grave Digger posted:Speed was an issue, but it wasn't THE issue last year...Randall Cobb has 4.4 speed just like Janis. Abby and Adams have 4.5 speed, just like Jordy. We had players who could run, but defenses were challenging them so fiercely and aggressively that there was nothing open. When a defense plays with no fear of your passing game then the offense will either demolish them or be completely ineffective. It wasn't that CBs were faster, receivers don't get open ONLY because of speed, they get open because they know where their going and defenses don't react fast enough. Defenses weren't reacting, they were forcing our receiver to go where they wanted and our WRs couldn't find any open spaces.
There is 40 times and there is game speed. Adams, may have been injury related, looked slow.
I'll also add that it seemed like the DB's knew what was coming 90% of the time. We need a little more imagination in the play calling and better route running. I'm hopefull that MM back in his traditional role will resolve some of that as well as Nelson's return.
As far as who gets kept at WR, I just cant see letting Janis walk. He was absolutely dominate on punt coverage. Guys have made a real good living in the NFL being special teams aces.
GREEN BAY - The most consistent receiver in Green Bay Packers training camp has been:
a) Jared Abbrederis
b) Davante Adams
c) Randall Cobb
d) Geronimo Allison
If you picked any of the first three, you haven’t spent enough time watching Allison, the undrafted free agent from Illinois, who through the first six practices has caught just about everything thrown his way and seemingly gained the confidence of his quarterbacks.
The 6-3¼, 202-pound Allison is the tallest receiver on the roster and with 33-inch arms offers the Packers a different body type at the position. Scouts knocked him because of a lack of deep speed, but in training camp, he has caught a pass on just about every other kind of route he has run.
http://www.packersnews.com/sto...-receivers/88047278/
Yep. Geronimo must be a lock.
Besides...he's got a great name. It'll be good for the NFL.
G-E-R-O-N-I-M-OOOOOOOO. I can hear the announcer now after he scores a touchdown. (like the soccer announcers that yell: GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAL after a score).
Bush wasn't in a crowded CB group though. Bush also had some cross training at Safety, which allowed them to keep 1 more CB and 1 fewer Safety. Being a good gunner won't save his job in a crowded WR group in a pass first offense. Janis' saving grace is Kick Returner. Trevor Davis was, IMO, mainly brought in (at least in the short term) to pair with Monty to make a fierce Kick Return duo, but if Monty is out for any amount of time then Janis is the top experienced KR on the roster. With the new touchback rules it sounds like kicking teams will be forcing more returns than touchbacks, so talent at KR will be necessary. This offense is built on savvy, football IQ, and timing. All of those things are improved upon in meetings and in practice, so being a gamer simply won't cut it. How could any coach or QB trust a player like that? Sure he produced in a couple games, but the real tests come when teams have film on and can anticipate your moves. That's when the football IQ and the timing become crucial. If Janis, or Adams or any player for that matter, can't master the position then they won't keep him, gamer or not.
Wise words...
Not sure if I have ever had a fast start in camp,but I always competed,don't freak out if guys have slow start to camp,or fast one
Pistol GB posted:Not to re-dredge a complete analysis last year's problems on offense, but at WR, talent wasn't so much the problem as it was speed. There was no deep threat, which allowed man coverage to work on Jones, Adams and Richards, and teams could run a a single safety deep which allowed them to jam Cobb and stuff Lacy. It was all about lack of deep threat.
Nelson getting hurt, and then Adams getting hurt, and then Montgomery getting hurt might have been a factor in WR speed.
Last years WRs (before Jordy went down) and their 40 times from combine or pro-days.
Abbredaris 40 - 4.50
Cobb 40 - 4.46
Adams 40 - 4.51
Nelson 40 - 4.51
Montgomery 40 - 4.50
Janis 40 - 4.37
SanDiegoPackFan posted:Yep. Geronimo must be a lock.
Besides...he's got a great name. It'll be good for the NFL.
G-E-R-O-N-I-M-OOOOOOOO. I can hear the announcer now after he scores a touchdown. (like the soccer announcers that yell: GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAL after a score).
Can't wait till he scores against the Redskins.
PackerPatrick posted:Hungry5 posted:PackerPatrick posted:I wonder if Janis! can move to safety? He CAN tackle.
Right, because the Packers need safety help.
As for the starters I agree with you Hungry5. But as a backup like Goodson is. It might take a while but free up a spot for the WR's group and have him play ST as a "Safety" type STer
Goodson plays CB
UnOfficial depth chart
SS -- Morgan Burnett, Micah Hyde, Marwin Evans
FS -- Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Chris Banjo, Kentrell Brice, Jermaine Whitehead
SanDiegoPackFan posted:FLPACKER posted:Will they keep Janis solely for STs?
Yes. If they kept Jarrett Bush all those years....they will keep Janis. It's called the "Bush Effect".....besides, he has pictures of TT and MM in a hot tub.
Not entirely the same.
Bush could play ST, 5th CB, 4th S.
Janis can play ST... he has yet to show he knows the WR position(s). McCarthy wants/needs his guys to know all 4 spots.
Hungry5 posted:Pistol GB posted:Not to re-dredge a complete analysis last year's problems on offense, but at WR, talent wasn't so much the problem as it was speed. There was no deep threat, which allowed man coverage to work on Jones, Adams and Richards, and teams could run a a single safety deep which allowed them to jam Cobb and stuff Lacy. It was all about lack of deep threat.
Nelson getting hurt, and then Adams getting hurt, and then Montgomery getting hurt might have been a factor in WR speed.
Absolutely, of course. I was talking about who they had, not who they didn't. And Adams' injury was pretty clear. He couldn't run, cut or jump.
Grave Digger posted:Speed was an issue, but it wasn't THE issue last year...Randall Cobb has 4.4 speed just like Janis. Abby and Adams have 4.5 speed, just like Jordy. We had players who could run, but defenses were challenging them so fiercely and aggressively that there was nothing open. When a defense plays with no fear of your passing game then the offense will either demolish them or be completely ineffective. It wasn't that CBs were faster, receivers don't get open ONLY because of speed, they get open because they know where their going and defenses don't react fast enough. Defenses weren't reacting, they were forcing our receiver to go where they wanted and our WRs couldn't find any open spaces.
Definitely a combination of things I agree. Abbredaris was also the exception, when he finally got to play, because his routes are superior even though he's not a burner.
What stood out though, when they isolated the cameras on our WR's (which unfortunately they did a lot) was this: The DB's in single coverage would let JJ, DA and RR get a little ahead and then just easily run along with them. No matter which way the WR cut, the faster DB was able to make it up. Agonizing to watch, and it was primarily a speed problem. Those 3 were dragging anchors.
So everyone knew they weren't getting open deep, hence the single high safety, and every week Mike rolled out the same scheme, saying, "Receivers need to win their 1-on-1's," which they weren't doing. It was a bad combination that only got worse and worse.
Luckily I don't see that scenario happening again. McCarthy called it in his last interview: "We need speed down the middle." Ted responds with Jared Cook. And with long-striding Nelson, the 40 is just too short to be an accurate measure. That guy beats almost everyone on deep posts, and he will be back. Throw in the return of some our better route-runners in Abby and Monty, and new guys pushing the whole group, and a trimmed down Lacy, and last year is long gone.
Janis! admittedly doesn't practice well...never has. But he has ALWAYS produced in games ...when given the chance to play.
I guess it's my turn to explain this. He has proven successful doing ONE thing at WR: winning a jump ball. Some might even call that a fluke. Our offense is not built around that kind of play and you can only run it a very limited number of times in a season. It's even worse if the only reason he comes on the field is to run that play because everybody knows what's up. He has to be on the field more which means he has to prove efficiency at the other 99% of a what a WR in our offense needs to do.
Adams has already proven he is capable of doing those other things. We'll see if being healthy again makes a difference.
WRT to our WR's: Once the OL started getting dinged up and it was apparent Lacy was underperforming, D's also stopped fearing the run. It was a lot easier to press our WR's and flood the passing lanes when you don't have to bring an 8th guy in the box. I remember comments during games where we couldn't run vs. 7 in the box. It's never just one thing.
Cameras may have isolated our WR's and a CB but what they weren't showing was the other DB's filling the other lanes. It's easy to press a WR when another guy has your back. That isn't the case when we're having success running the ball. If Lacy looks like 2014 this year, the passing game will automatically get a bump up. And that only happens if our OL is also healthy.
Hungry5 posted:PackerPatrick posted:Hungry5 posted:PackerPatrick posted:I wonder if Janis! can move to safety? He CAN tackle.
Right, because the Packers need safety help.
As for the starters I agree with you Hungry5. But as a backup like Goodson is. It might take a while but free up a spot for the WR's group and have him play ST as a "Safety" type STer
Goodson plays CB
UnOfficial depth chart
SS -- Morgan Burnett, Micah Hyde, Marwin Evans
FS -- Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Chris Banjo, Kentrell Brice, Jermaine Whitehead
Dang, you are right about position! My bad! I was thinking (never a good thing) about Banjo's slot and that it was he that was suspended not Goodson.
The point remains about Banjo's slot on ST being filled with Janis!. Janis! is also a great gunner not just a returner.
DH13 posted:I remember comments during games where we couldn't run vs. 7 in the box. It's never just one thing.
At times in previous years, teams would only have 6 in the box & dare us to run.
Sounding like Hundley is going to miss the HOF game. Extended look at Williams and Dirty Harry. Not necessarily a bad thing.
@ByRyanWood
#Packers RT Bryan Bulaga (rest for knee) is back in pads after missing Wednesday night's practice.
@WesHod
Aaron Rodgers and Brett Hundley both in sweats tonight #PackersCamp
@WesHod
Not practicing: Hundley, Rodgers, Dorleant, Lacy, Pikula, Ryan, Barrington, Anderson, Linsley, Murphy, James, Henry, Nelson, Cook,Montgomery
@Michael_Cohen13
Janis still working as the No. 1 kickoff return man. Hyde and rookie Trevor Davis seem to be the top punt returners. #Packers
Sounds like AR and Hundley will be in street clothes Sunday.
A big strike against DuhVante that some people keep ignoring.
Ted's eye isn't just on performance. He's said that he watches how players interact, respond to adversity. #Packers
What do you mean? No he didn't respond well to having nagging leg injuries and trying to play. No one does. You keep talking about his attitude like you were here and interacted with him, you're just reading his body language from a TV. Body language you say looked like he quit. Throw some facts chief, you're supposedly all about facts.
@jasonjwilde
#Packers rookie WR Geronimo Allison with another touchdown catch from Marquise Williams. Read more about him here.
@Michael_Cohen13
Really nice catch by Jamel Johnson in the back corner of the end zone. Adjusted well in the air on a pass from Callahan. #Packers
@ByRyanWood
@WesHod
New DNPs: Aaron Rodgers(rest), Eddie Lacy (ankle), DT Demetris Anderson (ankle) #PackersCamp
oldschool posted:A big strike against DuhVante that some people keep ignoring.
Ted's eye isn't just on performance. He's said that he watches how players interact, respond to adversity.
#Packers
Skip Bayless would call this a heat check.
Grave Digger posted:What do you mean? No he didn't respond well to having nagging leg injuries and trying to play. No one does. You keep talking about his attitude like you were here and interacted with him, you're just reading his body language from a TV. Body language you say looked like he quit. Throw some facts chief, you're supposedly all about facts.
Either you aren't watching the same games as everybody else, or your football analysis is very sloppy.
Quitting is cancer on a football team...no place for it.
Davante Adams straight quit running that route
---------
Bill Scott Davante Adams, quit whining and catch the ball.
--------
You could sense the displeasure from McCarthy in his post game press conference, when asked about Adams.
“Didn’t have a very good day today, the consistency we’re getting in certain areas needs to pick up.”
A second round selection in the 2014 NFL Draft, many spectators are already labeling Adams as a bust in terms of his overall career.
From the quitting on routes, to the dropping of routine passes, Adams has no place to start on this offense right now
-----
I don't care if Janis is the worst route runner in the NFL after seeing Adams walk and quit on play after play. #Packers
-------
Davante Adams complains every play - doesn't run - can't catch - you won't get any respect from officials - quit crying and play @packers
-----
#packers ADAMS just quit on the route & he has been anything but good tonight. total non effort total lack of enthusiasm which equals LOSER
------
In reply to Green Bay Packers
Charles Eckes @packers - DeDropnay Adams quit on the route. Maybe time to bench him
-----
n reply to Green Bay Packers
AJ Tomky
titmfatied posted:
Thanks SO much for these, being on the road, I need this type of help!
Always love when you contribute titm. Thanks!
My peel away initially from the list of tweets... gorgeous!!
Attachments
Images (1)
Posting opinions from people on Twitter is not facts. That's just more people reading body language from a TV...did Wikipedia not have any entries about him quitting on routes? Quitting is Dez Bryant walking off the field before the game ends, you haven't pointed to anything other than a collection of drunk randoms smack talking. If Adams was truly quitting, he wouldn't have been starting with an injured ankle. GB's coaches aren't perfect, but if a player is so blatantly quitting that the rubes on Twitter can see it then it definitely shows up on film and I guarantee he is punished. Stop being sloppy and show your work chief.
Grave Digger posted:Posting opinions from people on Twitter is not facts. That's just more people reading body language from a TV...did Wikipedia not have any entries about him quitting on routes? Quitting is Dez Bryant walking off the field before the game ends, you haven't pointed to anything other than a collection of drunk randoms smack talking. If Adams was truly quitting, he wouldn't have been starting with an injured ankle. GB's coaches aren't perfect, but if a player is so blatantly quitting that the rubes on Twitter can see it then it definitely shows up on film and I guarantee he is punished. Stop being sloppy and show your work chief.
GD, you sound like a quitter.