Official 2016 Packers Training Camp master thread

oldschool posted:

Grave Digger posted:

What do you mean? No he didn't respond well to having nagging leg injuries and trying to play. No one does. You keep talking about his attitude like you were here and interacted with him, you're just reading his body language from a TV. Body language you say looked like he quit. Throw some facts chief, you're supposedly all about facts. 

Either you aren't watching the same games as everybody else, or your football analysis is very sloppy.

 

Quitting is cancer on a football team...no place for it.

 

 

Dave ‏@OZthecheesehead Jan 3

Davante Adams straight quit running that route

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Wes Hodkiewicz and 3 others follow

Bill Scott ‏@bscottwrn 26 Nov 2015

Davante Adams, quit whining and catch the ball.

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You could sense the displeasure from McCarthy in his post game press conference, when asked about Adams.

“Didn’t have a very good day today, the consistency we’re getting in certain areas needs to pick up.”

A second round selection in the 2014 NFL Draft, many spectators are already labeling Adams as a bust in terms of his overall career.

From the quitting on routes, to the dropping of routine passes, Adams has no place to start on this offense right now

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Josh McPeak ‏@VALambeauLeaper Jan 10

I don't care if Janis is the worst route runner in the NFL after seeing Adams walk and quit on play after play. #Packers

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NY2LA SPORTS ‏@ny2lasports 3 Dec 2015

Davante Adams complains every play - doesn't run - can't catch - you won't get any respect from officials - quit crying and play @packers

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tim m ‏@bearandpizza 26 Nov 2015

#packers ADAMS just quit on the route & he has been anything but good tonight. total non effort total lack of enthusiasm which equals LOSER

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In reply to Green Bay Packers

Charles Eckes ‏@arcrec 26 Nov 2015

@packers - DeDropnay Adams quit on the route. Maybe time to bench him

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n reply to Green Bay Packers

AJ Tomky ‏@ATomky 26 Nov 2015

@packersquit throwing Adams the ball, he has numerous drops quit on that route!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Ok. I'm tired of your bull****. You're basing you're case against Adams based on Twitter feeds of an interception thrown Thanksgiving night 2015 (and a couple random posts of mindless a-holes) on a night Adams was playing hurt. And your fictitious house of bull**** completely ignores Green Bay was running ****ing wild on Chicago only Tom Clements knew better and was damn well going to force feed the passing game even though the passing game was completely ****ing broken. Green Bay averaged 6.3 yards per carry and yet Clements just kept slinging it. Chicago had zero answer for Lacy and Starks. ZERO!!!! Yet you think Adams is a cancer. 

I will always believe that game was the game MM slammed the door shut on the Clements experience. 

You ask me? You aren't watching the same games as everyone else. Your analysis is sloppy. You aren't speaking the truth. You pull **** out of your ass. 

He's just trolling X4 to get a rise out of people.

Grave Digger posted:

Posting opinions from people on Twitter is not facts. That's just more people reading body language from a TV...did Wikipedia not have any entries about him quitting on routes? Quitting is Dez Bryant walking off the field before the game ends, you haven't pointed to anything other than a collection of drunk randoms smack talking. If Adams was truly quitting, he wouldn't have been starting with an injured ankle. GB's coaches aren't perfect, but if a player is so blatantly quitting that the rubes on Twitter can see it then it definitely shows up on film and I guarantee he is punished. Stop being sloppy and show your work chief.

So now everybody that disagrees with you... is a rube? 

Sounds legit.

Here are some more facts when we discuss DuhVante vs. Janis.

He had one of the worst seasons for a WR in NFL history.

Davante Adams Is Having a Historically Bad Season

Quarterback Aaron Rodgers has targeted Adams 64 times this year, and Adams has caught just 32 of those passes. We've seen worse catch rates than that among higher-volume receivers, to be clear, but most of the wideouts who see that low of catch rates also have accumulated high yards per reception averages. In other words, they're deep ball threats -- their catch rates are lower because they're seeing lower percentage throws.

Adams isn't one of those deep ball guys, as he has a 10.1 yards per reception average right now. Since targets started being recorded back in 1992, per Pro Football Reference, only 17 wide receivers have averaged 11 or fewer yards per reception with a 50% (or worse) catch rate while seeing 60 or more targets in a season.

Davante Adams is one of those players.

And among this group of 17 -- remember, these are guys who have caught 50% or fewer of their targets while seeing 60 or more targets -- Adams' 10.1 yards per reception rate is fifth worst.

Predictably, this has translated to our advanced analytics. Since the turn of the century, 1,198 wide receivers have caught 30 or more passes, excluding this season. In terms of Reception NEP per target -- our per-target efficiency metric -- Davante Adams' current campaign would rank 1,186th within the group.

1186 th out 1198 WR's since the turn of the century!

ChilliJon posted:

You ask me? You aren't watching the same games as everyone else. Your analysis is sloppy. You aren't speaking the truth. You pull **** out of your ass. 

If anyone also astutely observed MM, Rodgers, and how this organization works they would also understand this team simply does not draft and develop players who don't give a shi* or quit on this team. In the rare case that would happen, they are quickly moved down and then out of the depth chart.

It's no secret AR won't utilize you as a WR if he feels that player either A.) Isn't getting it (see Janis) or B.) has the wrong work ethic attitude (see Finley his rookie year).

This team hasn't lost faith in Adams. He's done some really good things in camp thus far but also had some drops he needs to work on. But that consistency isn't because he is some quitter or doesn't give a shi*. We saw him finally healthy in the Redskins playoff game last year. And that was the Adams everyone thought he would be before chronic injuries derailed his 2015 season.

So, let me pose this question: is our sample size large enough to call Adams a bust?

Statistically, the answer is yes.

Often times, Adams seemed a little like a scapegoat for the lack of offensive production – but the numbers indicate that he was among the least efficient receivers in the NFL.

According to Football Outsiders’ advanced metrics—Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement (DYAR) and Defense-Adjusted Value Over Average (DVOA) – Adams’ overall rating in 2015 was second-last among receivers who qualify (targeted at least 50 times), and better only than Tavon Austin of the St. Louis Rams.

In layman’s terms, DYAR ranks a wide receiver’s overall value, while DVOA ranks a wide receiver’s value-per-play. Of the 87 receivers targeted 50 or more times, Adams was No. 86 in DYAR and No. 84 in DVOA.

Adams’ yard-per-catch average (9.7) exceeded only Austin (9.1) and the Lions’ Golden Tate (9.0), and was the worst the Packers had seen since 1951.

Adams had just one touchdown reception in 2015 – a number that seems nearly impossible for a receiver that was healthy most of the season and the reigning NFL MVP throwing him the ball.

Although General Manager Ted Thompson has never missed on a WR/TE drafted in the top three rounds – Greg Jennings, James Jones, Jordy Nelson, Jermichael Finley and Randall Cobb are among the pass catchers drafted in either Rd. 2 or Rd. 3 – it might be time we chalk up Adams as a miss.

I’m tempted to say that he deserves one more season to earn his keep, but with Nelson returning and the emergence of Jeff Janis and Jared Abbrederis, Adams’ productivity does not warrant playing time. There is also the potential of Ty Montgomery making an impact after an ankle injury cut his rookie campaign short, and the chance Thompson uses a Day 1 or Day 2 pick on a wide receiver.

One play in particular stands out to me in my “does-this-player-really-want-to-be-on-the-field?” evaluation of Adams.

Week 12. Thanksgiving night – Packers v. Bears. Brett Favre’s name and retired No. 4 jersey revealed on Lambeau Field’s North façade at halftime. An ailing, yet exuberant Bart Starr emerged from the tunnel to greet Favre and congratulate him.

The Packers trailed 17-13 with just over three minutes in the fourth quarter, but were driving on the Chicago defense and at midfield. Rodgers looked to Adams on a routine slant, and Adams was bumped off of his route by Chris Prosinksi, gave zero effort to fight through the screen and allowed an otherwise on-target pass from Rodgers to drift into the arms of Tracy Porter.

Remarkably, the Packers had another chance to take the lead with under 30 seconds to play. A fourth-and-goal pass thrown to Adams, that was objectively a touch high, went through the hands of Adams.

The Bears won 17-13.

I’ll admit, one play should not determine the fate of a player … but numbers indicate that Adams is consistently lackluster.

http://packerstalk.com/2016/02...-the-packers-future/

oldschool posted:

Grave Digger posted:

Posting opinions from people on Twitter is not facts. That's just more people reading body language from a TV...did Wikipedia not have any entries about him quitting on routes? Quitting is Dez Bryant walking off the field before the game ends, you haven't pointed to anything other than a collection of drunk randoms smack talking. If Adams was truly quitting, he wouldn't have been starting with an injured ankle. GB's coaches aren't perfect, but if a player is so blatantly quitting that the rubes on Twitter can see it then it definitely shows up on film and I guarantee he is punished. Stop being sloppy and show your work chief.

So now everybody that disagrees with you... is a rube? 

Sounds legit.

Here are some more facts when we discuss DuhVante vs. Janis.

He had one of the worst seasons for a WR in NFL history.

Davante Adams Is Having a Historically Bad Season

Quarterback Aaron Rodgers has targeted Adams 64 times this year, and Adams has caught just 32 of those passes. We've seen worse catch rates than that among higher-volume receivers, to be clear, but most of the wideouts who see that low of catch rates also have accumulated high yards per reception averages. In other words, they're deep ball threats -- their catch rates are lower because they're seeing lower percentage throws.

Adams isn't one of those deep ball guys, as he has a 10.1 yards per reception average right now. Since targets started being recorded back in 1992, per Pro Football Reference, only 17 wide receivers have averaged 11 or fewer yards per reception with a 50% (or worse) catch rate while seeing 60 or more targets in a season.

Davante Adams is one of those players.

And among this group of 17 -- remember, these are guys who have caught 50% or fewer of their targets while seeing 60 or more targets -- Adams' 10.1 yards per reception rate is fifth worst.

Predictably, this has translated to our advanced analytics. Since the turn of the century, 1,198 wide receivers have caught 30 or more passes, excluding this season. In terms of Reception NEP per target -- our per-target efficiency metric -- Davante Adams' current campaign would rank 1,186th within the group.

1186 th out 1198 WR's since the turn of the century!

 

Did you really just post numbers for the first 8 games he played in 2015 and try and pass them off as a reflection of his  worst season in history?  I think you did. Where does it end with you man? 

ChilliJon posted:

oldschool posted:

Grave Digger posted:

Posting opinions from people on Twitter is not facts. That's just more people reading body language from a TV...did Wikipedia not have any entries about him quitting on routes? Quitting is Dez Bryant walking off the field before the game ends, you haven't pointed to anything other than a collection of drunk randoms smack talking. If Adams was truly quitting, he wouldn't have been starting with an injured ankle. GB's coaches aren't perfect, but if a player is so blatantly quitting that the rubes on Twitter can see it then it definitely shows up on film and I guarantee he is punished. Stop being sloppy and show your work chief.

So now everybody that disagrees with you... is a rube? 

Sounds legit.

Here are some more facts when we discuss DuhVante vs. Janis.

He had one of the worst seasons for a WR in NFL history.

Davante Adams Is Having a Historically Bad Season

Quarterback Aaron Rodgers has targeted Adams 64 times this year, and Adams has caught just 32 of those passes. We've seen worse catch rates than that among higher-volume receivers, to be clear, but most of the wideouts who see that low of catch rates also have accumulated high yards per reception averages. In other words, they're deep ball threats -- their catch rates are lower because they're seeing lower percentage throws.

Adams isn't one of those deep ball guys, as he has a 10.1 yards per reception average right now. Since targets started being recorded back in 1992, per Pro Football Reference, only 17 wide receivers have averaged 11 or fewer yards per reception with a 50% (or worse) catch rate while seeing 60 or more targets in a season.

Davante Adams is one of those players.

And among this group of 17 -- remember, these are guys who have caught 50% or fewer of their targets while seeing 60 or more targets -- Adams' 10.1 yards per reception rate is fifth worst.

Predictably, this has translated to our advanced analytics. Since the turn of the century, 1,198 wide receivers have caught 30 or more passes, excluding this season. In terms of Reception NEP per target -- our per-target efficiency metric -- Davante Adams' current campaign would rank 1,186th within the group.

1186 th out 1198 WR's since the turn of the century!

 

Did you really just post numbers for the first 8 games he played in 2015 and try and pass them off as a reflection of his  worst season in history?  I think you did. Where does it end with you man? 

Yawn....

According to Football Outsiders’ advanced metrics—Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement (DYAR) and Defense-Adjusted Value Over Average (DVOA) –Adams’ overall rating in 2015 was second-last among receivers who qualify (targeted at least 50 times), and better only than Tavon Austin of the St. Louis Rams.

In layman’s terms, DYAR ranks a wide receiver’s overall value, while DVOA ranks a wide receiver’s value-per-play. Of the 87 receivers targeted 50 or more times, Adams was No. 86 in DYAR and No. 84 in DVOA.

Adams’ yard-per-catch average (9.7) exceeded only Austin (9.1) and the Lions’ Golden Tate (9.0), and was the worst the Packers had seen since 1951.

So you're saying you did pull 8 games and try to pass them off as a seasons worth of work. 

Surprising for someone that's always been a pillar of truth. 

ChilliJon posted:

So you're saying you did pull 8 games and try to pass them off as a seasons worth of work. 

Surprising for someone that's always been a pillar of truth. 

Where did I "say" this?

Quote?

I think maybe you didn't read it correctly...the first set of stats were based on over 30 catches since the turn of the century...not games played...which is irrelevant. 

And among this group of 17 -- remember, these are guys who have caught 50% or fewer of their targets while seeing 60 or more targets -- Adams' 10.1 yards per reception rate is fifth worst.

Predictably, this has translated to our advanced analytics. Since the turn of the century, 1,198 wide receivers have caught 30 or more passes, excluding this season. In terms of Reception NEP per target -- our per-target efficiency metric -- Davante Adams' current campaign would rank 1,186th within the group.

But show us my quote anyway...just so we know you are being truthful about what I said.

You took stats after the first 8 games he played and added "He had one of the worst seasons in NFL History" 

Adams caught more than 50% of his targets in 2015. 

Rodgers averaged 6.68 yards per completion last year. Completed 60% of his passes. Easily the worst numbers in his 8 years as a starter. Janis averaged 8 yards per catch last year off 2 receptions because has doesn't understand how to run routes. The offense was broken last year. Not Adams. The offense was. 

Now Shut The **** Up and go find another board to burn time with you're mindless bull****. 

ChilliJon posted:

You took stats after the first 8 games he played and added "He had one of the worst seasons in NFL History" 

Adams caught more than 50% of his targets in 2015. 

Rodgers averaged 6.68 yards per completion last year. Completed 60% of his passes. Easily the worst numbers in his 8 years as a starter. Janis averaged 8 yards per catch last year off 2 receptions because has doesn't understand how to run routes. The offense was broken last year. Not Adams. The offense was. 

Now Shut The **** Up and go find another board to burn time with you're mindless bull****. 

He did have one of the worst seasons in NFL history, and THE worst for a GB WR since 1951 per FootballOutsiders.

DuhVante had one TD playing on a team with a HOF QB last season.

One TD ALL SEASON.

Janis had twice as many TD's in just ONE game...vs. the NFL's best defense and a world class DB.

The facts are on my side...it's ridiculous to argue against these historically bad numbers for DuhVante.

It's time to move on...this has been beat to death and there is nothing else to say about it.

Over and out...you can have the last word if you must. It doesn't matter.

Thumbs up

Several months ago, a personnel man for an NFC team summed up East Carolina cornerback Josh Hawkins this way: “As a free agent, you’re not going to get too many guys that can move like him. Has a ton of talent and movement skills, but I question his toughness and instincts.” On Sunday night, Hawkins showed off his 4.39-second speed by blowing off the edge against center JC Tretterand blocking an extra-point attempt by Mason Crosby. On Wednesday night, Hawkins was one of the most impressive players in the first one-on-one’s of camp matching wide receivers and cornerbacks. The rookie free agent did a terrific job mirroring Herb Waters, earned a draw with tight coverage of Ed Williams and then covered extremely well in a victory over Williams. Hawkins played mostly zone coverage as a 2 ½-year starter for the Pirates but has taken to the Packers’ mostly-man scheme. Obviously, he’s learning, giving up touchdown passes of about 10 yards to Jamel Johnson on Wednesday night and 15 yards to Geronimo Allison on Thursday night. His height (5-10 ½) can be an issue against tall receivers like them. But Hawkins is a competitive player, and with his speed you never know how far that might take him.

http://www.packersnews.com/sto...s-delivers/88070340/

Grave Digger posted:

He's just trolling X4 to get a rise out of people.

I'm waiting for him to tell us what his Medicine Man thinks of Adams.

Get Jayrone Elliott in on 3rd down. What does this kid have to do to get more opportunities. Spare me the Perry love. Jayrone is the better pass rusher.

I'm just gonna mention this again in case it was forgotten:  Adams played on one leg most of last year.

He had a bad year playing on one leg.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do healthy rather than cut him because he had a bad year last year playing on one leg.

He still had his other leg to use.  Duh.

You're not posting facts about him supposedly quitting though, you're posting about his stats. I don't think anyone denies Adams had a subpar season, performance wise or stat wise. No one is on the other side of that debate. The point is that a 2nd year player who had nagging injuries all year having a bad season does not mean he's a bust. You also have no proof he "quit" on his team, whatever that even means. You have your amateur opinion (which is what we all have) based solely on body language you observed on TV, with zero context, of a guy you have never met or understand. Stop clogging up the board with your trolling conspiracy theory BS. Adams had a bad season, it happens. Crosby had a terrible season a few years ago and he rebounded with some of the best years of his career. Players rebound all the time.  

Need for Adams to finish his rookie contract before making any real judgment about him. Calling him a bust at this point is ridiculously premature.

Really was looking forward to seeing Hundley's development in his second year. Guess I'll just have to wait a bit for it.

Making judgements on players body language and facial expressions on the sideline is asinine.  

Save that for making judgements on coaches stupidfaces on the sideline and during press conferences 

Goalline posted:

Get Jayrone Elliott in on 3rd down. What does this kid have to do to get more opportunities. Spare me the Perry love. Jayrone is the better pass rusher.

Perry is a more complete player and MUCH better against the run. I do agree though that he needs to see the field more. 

It's worth noting that I saw more 4-3 looks in TC from this defense than I have in any other TC. In one instance I saw a line of Peppers, Daniels, Clark, Matthews all with their hand down with Ryan, Martinez, and Fackrell off the line. This D could be the most multiple it's been since McCarthy arrived in GB. 

The entire offense had a bad 2015 once the injuries started to mount.

RE: Adams specifically. He had a strong rookie season which gave us a look at his potential. He started 2015 strongly and then tailed off as the season went on. Was that because of the added pressure of being a true #2? Or maybe the injuries were worse than they let on and it affected his concentration? Maybe it was because he was apathetic about his profession? Or, the most likely reason, he was denied the personalized tutoring from the best coach known in the Fox Valley in this or any other century.

Jesus ****. 

It's worth mentioning that Adams converted over 65% of his targets in 2015 and averaged over 13 yards per reception. Historically speaking it's one of the greatest seasons in NFL history. 

Note. I'm using one game. But I'm applying advanced reverse analytics being that the game was the final game of the season. 

It would really be nice if we could have a thread about training camp.

It all hinges on this faulty reasoning:

Janis had twice as many TD's in just ONE game...vs. the NFL's best defense and a world class DB.

This is centered around TWO catches, both of which were winning jump balls.  This is great strategy for playing a backyard game of 500 or Randy Moss in 1998 but not so much for a legitimate offense that necessitates its receivers making the right reads, running the right routes, and getting open.  Janis wasn't open on either of his 2 big catches.  If anyone thinks you can have success throwing a jump ball to the same receiver a couple times a game in today's NFL, have fun listening to yourself.

Adams was terrible last season.  Probably the biggest disappointment on the team.  I think we can all admit that.

HOWEVER, Adams has looked fairly good this training camp, the third of his brief career.  He can still turn it around.  If he goes out and produces this season, no one will be calling him a bust.  He still has time to live up to his draft status.  

Draft status is irrelevant IMO. Especially with the Thompson way of finding players.

Draft position used to matter with huge 1st round contracts, and gave the draft dolts something to discuss. But really, at the end of the day, it comes down to a roster spot and if a player is worthy of filling it. All the draft does is give GMs the opportunity to guarantee a guy they like comes to their camp. The UDFA guys get to choose...

The offense was the biggest disappointment of 2015. All of it. The play calling, execution, game plan, everything was craptastically bad. 

The more I see stories about kids like Hawkins who's catching the attention of guys like McGinn and Spofford you have to ask yourself if it's getting lucky at finding CB's, skill at finding CB's, or coaching up CB's? 

I have to think it's coaching. You can't keep coming up roses at the clip GB has with corners. Gunter looks like he could realistically start for a lot of NFL teams. 

That's why Clements holding that gig while the offense circled the drain for almost TWO MONTHS is just baffling. I really hope Getsy is able to come in and have an impact on the WR's and Angelichio does the same with the TE's. 

ChilliJon posted:

...you have to ask yourself if it's getting lucky at finding CB's, skill at finding CB's, or coaching up CB's? 

I think it's a combination of the two. They talked at length the kinds of things they liked about Randall and Rollins and a lot of was about very specific skills related to other sports (footwork/balls skills from basketball and hand-eye coordination/lateral movement skills from baseball). So I think they're thinking outside the box with CBs and not just targeting the tall/fast guys or the guys with a lot of INTs. They're finding players with loads of potential and Whitt is unlocking that talent. 

Tdog posted:

I'm just gonna mention this again in case it was forgotten:  Adams played on one leg most of last year.

He had a bad year playing on one leg.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do healthy rather than cut him because he had a bad year last year playing on one leg.

You make a good point. but it's very damning to our coaching staff.

If you use DuhVante's leg as an excuse...which may very well be valid...what does that say about our coaching staff to know this and still play him?

We had other options.

Don't tell me Janis couldn't play because of his route tree or any of that nonsense.

DuhVante was having plenty of problems with his routes which were directly leading to game losing interceptions.

Just review the Thanksgiving game for the worst example. DuhVante was the goat...and some of that was due to his route running... a basic slant on a 3 step drop returned for a TD by the Bears in particular.

We also know that Janis did have the ability to produce...even if there was probably deficiencies in his practice game.

One of the packer sites posted some video later in the season last year of our receivers running routes in the end zone. To my eyes the only one who looked like they were able to cut hard, with some explosiveness was Abby. The rest appeared to "round off their" cuts. From the limited video that I have seen from camp, breaks in and out of cuts look much better. IDK if by the end everyone was hurt last year or the staff just allowed a lot of slippage. 

Dr._Bob posted:

He still had his other leg to use.  Duh.

Hopalong Adams.

Grave Digger posted:

Goalline posted:

Get Jayrone Elliott in on 3rd down. What does this kid have to do to get more opportunities. Spare me the Perry love. Jayrone is the better pass rusher.

Perry is a more complete player and MUCH better against the run. I do agree though that he needs to see the field more. 

 

Not disputing that. Just want to see Jayrone in on 3rd downs.

Goalline posted:

Dr._Bob posted:

He still had his other leg to use.  Duh.

Hopalong Adams.

Phillip Epps scored that way once...LOL.

I wonder if anyone here remembers.

Has anything happened at training camp lately?

Saying Adams is a quitter is very different than saying he sucks.  You can suck at something and give it your all (ie: Jarrett Bush).  You can also be great at something and be a quitter (ie: Albert Haynesworth).  The first is a lack of talent, the latter is a lack of character.  We may think we know enough to judge a player's character, but we don't.  

Call Adams a crappy player all you want.  But don't judge his character until you've actually spent time with him.  

CUPackFan posted:

Saying Adams is a quitter is very different than saying he sucks.  You can suck at something and give it your all (ie: Jarrett Bush).  You can also be great at something and be a quitter (ie: Albert Haynesworth).  The first is a lack of talent, the latter is a lack of character.  We may think we know enough to judge a player's character, but we don't.  

Call Adams a crappy player all you want.  But don't judge his character until you've actually spent time with him.  

So...what do you think of Trump then?

Have you met him?

No...I don't want to discuss politics here...I know better.

Just making my point...your point doesn't hold up to what we all do every day ..with no problem.

Yes, we all do, and feel that we can make judgments of character, by observing behavior and actions on TV. 

Nuff said.

So...what do you think of Trump then?

He's certainly no worse than oldschool.

Fedya posted:

So...what do you think of Trump then?

He's certainly no worse than oldschool.

Better than being "beta"....

That's why Trump is better than you: he's not beta.

Fedya posted:

That's why Trump is better than you: he's not beta.

I'm Omega...I trump them all.