Official General 2021 Offseason Thread

@H5 posted:

A lot of fans like to bag on "what me" Murphy, and sure why not? A face only a mother could love - like Nagler...

But, Murphy has done a good job representing the Packers interests at the league level, and he is more of a football mind than the 31 owners.

I think a lot of what Murphy getting criticized for is tough for us to know with certainty what exactly happened (it will probably come out in a few years). It's also whether it's him or Gutey that should be criticized if it happened.

1. Did he deny MLF the ability to hire the ST coach he wanted because of a few extra hundred thousand dollars? Did they force him to hire a cheaper alternative?

2. Did they tell MLF he could only take the head job if he agreed to keep Pettine on?

In both cases, if you are going to hire a head coach you have to give him the autonomy to put together his own staff. Maybe MLF wanted Pettine and this isn't an issue. There's a little more smoke about the ST coach situation. That's a problem.

The other think about Murphy that we don't know is what he was doing behind the scenes to chart a path forward during TT's ovious decline in health in the mid 2010s. Did he stick his head in the and ignore it as long as possible or did he work through a process to let TT leave gracefully earlier than TT wanted to? That was a really tough situation to work through, but that's what defines good executives vs. average ones. Anyone can look good shaking hands with other GMs/owners or building sledding hills.

Again, it bears repeating but the power structure in GB isn’t typical and could create some issues.

Russ Ball presides over football operations including contract administration.  Gute as GM basically manages roster decisions only.  MLF reports to Murphy.   Does that make sense to you?

My understanding is MLF did not have the ability to choose all of the coaches including Pettine.  That seems strange at best.  Especially when none of the coaches report to the GM who is in charge of building and maintaining a roster that should reflect their preferences and schemes.  As for the scuttlebutt about the ST coach, did Russ Ball put his foot down and dictate salary limits?  

The biggest indictment of this entire deal is Murphy’s failure to address the TT situation - as well as MM- earlier than he did.  If I’m Rodgers, I’m pissed because it was clear MM should have been fired long before he was and TTs health clearly impacted his ability to do his job in the final 2-3 years of his tenure.  So through inaction, the Packers basically wasted several years of Rodgers while Mark Murphy was playing owner building and expanding the economic footprint of the team at the detriment of the quality of product on the field.  

@H5 posted:

No Jordan Love?  Fake news.

Can we trade Boyle to someone for a first?

@"We"-Ka-Bong posted:

Can we trade Boyle to someone for a first?

A star is worth more than that.

Jeff Janis! doesn't turn 30 until June.

@Fedya posted:

Jeff Janis! doesn't turn 30 until June.

You mock him but have we had a decent gunner since he left?

How many completed  Hail Mary's

On one drive?

@"We"-Ka-Bong posted:

Can we trade Boyle to someone for a first?

At least.

Being All-Oneida is a rare achievement.

Year summary by Herman. At the end of the article he explains his rating system. Most interesting to me ... the two players whose grades regressed the most from last season? The Smith brothers

https://247sports.com/nfl/gree...in-review-160486709/

I thought AR was off dairy.  Am I too late?

@FLPACKER posted:

Year summary by Herman. At the end of the article he explains his rating system. Most interesting to me ... the two players whose grades regressed the most from last season? The Smith brothers

https://247sports.com/nfl/gree...in-review-160486709/

I could see that. There was a lot less calling of the Smiths' names this year than last year. Not only was P MIA, but Z was gone for long stretches as well. He'd flash once in awhile, but then he'd be gone again. It made me wonder if he wasn't playing through an injury or something they were hiding.

Z Smith was still very good this year, he just happen to have an incredible 2019 so the decline looks significant.  P Smith though....I didn't think he was worthy of playing over Gary by the end of the year. He's due $12m in cash in 2021 and they already have his replacement outplaying him, so just don't see how he's not a cap casualty. Cutting him would save $8m this year, or $12m if you spread the dead cap over two years. Yes he'd be nice to have but Packers are $24m over the cap, tough decisions have to be made. 

I don't think the Packers will be very active in free agency and their draft will be pretty boring.  I think they sign depth on DL and OL, and a slot WR. I actually think they bring King back because his value around the league is low. Draft should focus on CB, OL and DL. At ILB, they ride with the youngsters who I think have the potential to be pretty good. 

I wouldn't let King back even if he was free!

It’s just pretty weird to be jealous of a team “going all-in” signing a RB when the #Packers built the best RB room in football through the draft with a 3rd, 4th and 5th round picks as the good lord intended.

— Peter Bukowski (@Peter_Bukowski) February 8, 2021

I think the “all in” reference has more to do with burning a 1st rounder on Jordan Love than adding a WR or LB or someone else early in the draft.

Gute has spent money on free agents so it’s not like he avoids those options but hey, people want to keep beating that dead horse I guess so.

Much like 2014, I don’t think we realize just how close this team was to not only making the Super Bowl but winning it and I’m not sure one more player would have made a difference although losing Bak was a huge blow.

So which is it?  The Packers "so close to winning the NFCC and Super Bowl" or "not sure one player would've made the difference".

If the inference is the Packers were good enough to win not only the NFCC but the Super Bowl as well then how could not shoring up huge gaping weaknesses not make a difference?  They did lose correct?  How could a 1st AND 4th rounder not possibly make a difference if the picks hit? 

Let's not forget that.  Wasn't just a 1st, it was a 1st and a 4th.

@Boris posted:

It’s just pretty weird to be jealous of a team “going all-in” signing a RB when the #Packers built the best RB room in football through the draft with a 3rd, 4th and 5th round picks as the good lord intended.

— Peter Bukowski (@Peter_Bukowski) February 8, 2021

Tell that to the defense.

Seriously, if you're going to make a dumb argument based on false equivalency just shut up.  Oh wait, it is Twitter.  Home of the dumbshit posing as competent.

edit: not you Boris, Pete Butterfowski

@Henry posted:

Wasn't just a 1st, it was a 1st and a 4th.

Swap firsts & a 4th.

Hindsight = 20/20 -- After seeing Justin Jefferson play this year, I would've given up a future first to get him. May have made the difference.

There was no hindsight involved when it came to massive holes in the defense.

Pretty sure swapping a 1st and completely giving up a 4th for Jordan Love equals burning a 1st and a 4th.

@Henry posted:

So which is it?  The Packers "so close to winning the NFCC and SuperBowl" or "not sure one player would've made the difference".

If you would have added contributors this past off-season, maybe you create a situation where it doesn't come down to one or two plays because you have more talent. Maybe those 4 3rd-down conversions on the Bucs first drive don't happen because you have another pass rusher that forces an early throw or an LB with more speed to stop a guy short of a first down. Or another CB that doesn't force you to play an at-best mediocre 2nd CB when he's dinged up (King).

The Packers top 4 draft picks were invested in a QB that didn't play a snap, a 3rd string RB they didn't trust to put on the field more after Aaron Jones got hurt, and a 3rd string TE.

The Buccanneers top 3 rounds of picks netted them a starting RT (Wirfs), a starting safety (Winfield), and a backup RB. Their 4th round pick was traded for the rights to Gronkowski.

Just think about that. The Packers used their 1st and 4th round pick to get Jordan Love. The Bucs used their 1st and 4th round picks to get their starting RT and starting TE. And they used their 2nd round pick to get a starting safety and we used ours to get a RB we redshirted.

What this draft did do was to make it more likely the Packers won't crater after Rodgers finally does move on. While they'll never admit it, Gutey and MLF probably feel that if they go 9-7 in 2023 and 2024 they'll be guaranteed to keep their jobs longer. If they went all out and didn't win it this year, then the cupboard is more bare and they risk a 4-12 type season down the road. Look what happened to Doug Pederson even after he won a title 3 years ago.

A 68-year-old Arians and a GM down to his last season aren't worried about 2023. That's the difference.

Agreed at the LB'er spot -- but hey, they did draft a 5th rounder who looks better than I thought he'd be & picked up Kirksey who is way better at Will than Mike.

Still very uninspiring

That's the thing about Martin.  He was drafted in the 5th not because he was short on talent, he was short on time on the field. 

@Henry posted:

Tell that to the defense.

Seriously, if you're going to make a dumb argument based on false equivalency just shut up.  Oh wait, it is Twitter.  Home of the dumbshit posing as competent.

edit: not you Boris, Pete Butterfowski

Also, Dillon was a 2nd round pick, not a 3rd rounder.

@MichiganPacker2 posted:

If you would have added contributors this past off-season, maybe you create a situation where it doesn't come down to one or two plays because you have more talent. Maybe those 4 3rd-down conversions on the Bucs first drive don't happen because you have another pass rusher that forces an early throw or an LB with more speed to stop a guy short of a first down. Or another CB that doesn't force you to play an at-best mediocre 2nd CB when he's dinged up (King).

The Packers top 4 draft picks were invested in a QB that didn't play a snap, a 3rd string RB they didn't trust to put on the field more after Aaron Jones got hurt, and a 3rd string TE.

The Buccanneers top 3 rounds of picks netted them a starting RT (Wirfs), a starting safety (Winfield), and a backup RB. Their 4th round pick was traded for the rights to Gronkowski.

Just think about that. The Packers used their 1st and 4th round pick to get Jordan Love. The Bucs used their 1st and 4th round picks to get their starting RT and starting TE. And they used their 2nd round pick to get a starting safety and we used ours to get a RB we redshirted.

What this draft did do was to make it more likely the Packers won't crater after Rodgers finally does move on. While they'll never admit it, Gutey and MLF probably feel that if they go 9-7 in 2023 and 2024 they'll be guaranteed to keep their jobs longer. If they went all out and didn't win it this year, then the cupboard is more bare and they risk a 4-12 type season down the road. Look what happened to Doug Pederson even after he won a title 3 years ago.

A 68-year-old Arians and a GM down to his last season aren't worried about 2023. That's the difference.

Just reading this is depressing as hell.

This is the thought that keeps going through my head.  If Jordan Love pans out, do they keep doing this building for the future bit while the current team never gets over the hump?

The biggest god damn kicker is you have AARON RODGERS.  The guy that's BETTER than Favre.  That's fucking crazy to have a generational talent and not bust your hump to do everything to build up the team around him.  Yes, defense, not the WR bit.  He makes due with mediocre WR.

If Jordan Love becomes Alex Smith then great, keep building for the future.  But if he's a talent like Rodgers BUILD A COMPLETE TEAM AROUND HIM.  And yes, I'll lick his butthole Goalline.

GB spotted TB 14 points with mental mistakes that would have made the difference in the game. Not sure Justin Jefferson or Patrick Queen would have stopped AJ from fumbling or King from getting beat deep on a hail mary. That's what it comes down to...we allowed 17 points in earnest and 14 gimme points that should never have happened. This team was enough and based on how KC played it seems GB would have been enough to win the whole show. It's not to say anyone would prefer Love to having Jefferson or Queen, but Love isn't the problem.

If GB wastes picks or passes opportunities for solid UFAs when they have glaring holes at C, RB, and CB (assuming our guys aren't re-signed) then there's a huge problem. I think we will be pleasantly surprised by this offseason. It sounds like the cap may not be as much of an issue, which allows for opportunities to keep key guys like Linsely and AJ or replace them with serviceable vets in the mold of Rick Wagner.

We may be pleasantly surprised with this coming off season, but we know how matter how hard we try the Purple will be the winners

The guy that's BETTER than Favre.   Sorry this kinda made me laugh.....there is really NO comparison between them stats wise, but Bert and Aaron were both 3 time MVP’s.    

@Grave Digger posted:

GB spotted TB 14 points with mental mistakes that would have made the difference in the game. Not sure Justin Jefferson or Patrick Queen would have stopped AJ from fumbling or King from getting beat deep on a hail mary. That's what it comes down to...we allowed 17 points in earnest and 14 gimme points that should never have happened. This team was enough and based on how KC played it seems GB would have been enough to win the whole show. It's not to say anyone would prefer Love to having Jefferson or Queen, but Love isn't the problem.

Or maybe those not additions to the defense help stop the Bucs on another scoring drive?  Ifs and buts . . .

You at least have to try.

And I hope you're right about this offseason.  I'm cautiously, really cautiously, optimistic.

@Goldie posted:

The guy that's BETTER than Favre.   Sorry this kinda made me laugh.....there is really NO comparison between them stats wise, but Bert and Aaron were both 3 time MVP’s.  

Okay.  Not sure how that makes a difference without context.

@Goldie posted:

The guy that's BETTER than Favre.   Sorry this kinda made me laugh.....there is really NO comparison between them stats wise, but Bert and Aaron were both 3 time MVP’s.  

If you had a team that otherwise had 6-10 talent, Favre would take enough risks and make enough plays to lift that team to a 10-6 record. Favre with Holmgren after he gained experience was a top 10 QB all time. Maybe even top 5. Favre without Holmgren was Jay Cutler.

If you had a team that was a Super Bowl contender with 13-3 talent, Favre would take enough unnecessary risks to lose an extra game or two every year or blow a playoff game.  Favre had 2 playoff games where he threw game-deciding interceptions on the last play and another where he had 6 interceptions (not even counting blowing the Vikings chance to go to a Super Bowl with an idiotic throw).

You can count on one hand the number of games Rodgers has been one of the main reasons why they lost a game in his career. Maybe the regular-season Tampa Bay game this year is one. He could have played better in some playoff games to get them over the hump, but he never really has had an awful game in the playoffs. He's been played better than the opposing QB in the majority of his playoff loses.

Favre was the main reason they lost several playoff games. The Packers have lost 4 playoff games in Rodger's career where the offense scored on the last possession to tie the game or get within one score (2020 season Bucs, 2015 Cardinals, 2014 Seahawks, 2013) and the offense never ran another play. He lost another one where his facemask was ripped off. 5 of his losses were in games the defense gave up 51, 45, 44, 37, and 37 points).

@Henry posted:

Just reading this is depressing as hell.

This is the thought that keeps going through my head.  If Jordan Love pans out, do they keep doing this building for the future bit while the current team never gets over the hump?

The biggest god damn kicker is you have AARON RODGERS.  The guy that's BETTER than Favre.  That's fucking crazy to have a generational talent and not bust your hump to do everything to build up the team around him.  Yes, defense, not the WR bit.  He makes due with mediocre WR.

If Jordan Love becomes Alex Smith then great, keep building for the future.  But if he's a talent like Rodgers BUILD A COMPLETE TEAM AROUND HIM.  And yes, I'll lick his butthole Goalline.

This is where I got that statement......should have posted entire thing.  I did post it in BOLD type so it would stand out.  

So let’s see, Bak gets hurt and Tampa pass rushers have a field day with his replacement(s).  

Aaron Jones fumbles and gets hurt and has a nightmare game.   Adams drops at least a couple of passes (including a TD) that he catches probably 95% of the time.

ESB drops a 2pt conversion.  Points off the board.

Tampa doesn’t get called for an obvious PI call on the Rodgers INT and then Pettine and King kerfaffle shit the bed on the Hail Mary before half.   Let’s also not forget that Will Redmond kept that drive going with a dropped INT.  

Not to mention a few other non calls like Lazard getting mugged twice in the 4Q that stalled drives.  

Credit to Tampa they played a great game on defense.  But if not for bad officiating and missed opportunities by the Packers and a couple of key injuries I think there’s a good chance it’s GB that is hoisting the Lombardi Trophy.

So if we really think we were one player away or was the difference in the NFCCG well, that dog won’t hunt.  The Packers had numerous chances to win even with the refs and injuries and couldn’t close.  Let’s hope they learn from it and make amends in 2021.

I know it is a lot to ask of people who haven't recovered from the Seattle game from 6 years ago, but the Tampa game is over. So looking forward to this off-season and to next season. We gonna be gud again.

Oh, we will be gud.  We have been gud for most of 30 years.

I'm hoping for more.

Winning the Super Bowl is generally the goal. 

@Tschmack posted:

So if we really think we were one player away or was the difference in the NFCCG well, that dog won’t hunt.  The Packers had numerous chances to win even with the refs and injuries and couldn’t close.  Let’s hope they learn from it and make amends in 2021.

Bullshit.  With all the fuck ups they were within range.  Then they kicked a fucking FG.  Specifically with that whole line of reasoning that the FG was legit because the D had been playing better.  You don't think the possibility of shoring up massive holes in the middle of the defense might of actually stopped the Bucs and given the ball back to Rodgers?  The whole scenario Mayo so incorrectly went with?

It's a fact, there were ways to improve this team to actually get over the fucking hump.  It's the same god damn argument every year.  "The Packers beat themselves".  Well, how about getting some extra "Packers beat themselves" insurance instead of pissing it away on project QB?  "Oh, well THIS time it'll work". 

No, of course actual talent on the field could in no way affect what happens.

Jesus fuck.

I can understand the desire to move on from unpleasant experiences like the loss to TB, but I don't think it is time to R-E-L-A-X in GB anymore and as Winston Churchill said "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

The Packers as an organization need to take a long look as to why they have repeatedly come up short when it comes to returning to the Super Bowl over the past decade despite having "good" teams for most of that time.

(And MLF has certainly started that process from a coaching standpoint by getting rid of the Special Teams and Defensive Coordinators from this season's 13-3 team).

The front office also needs to take a look at how it operates.

To take but one (glaringly ovious) example, in 2020, the Packers traded their 1st and 4th round picks in order to select a player for the future.

In contrast, the team that beat GB in the NFCCG sent a 4th round pick to NE for a TE who just caught 2 TDs in the Super Bowl -- even though it already had 2 pretty good TEs in Brate and OJ Howard. That is what going ALL IN to win now looks like.

And yes I know that Gronk specifically was never coming to GB, but the Pack has not traded a draft pick for any veteran player that could help them in the upcoming season in forever. Trading for players is just not done in GB for whatever reason.

If getting to and winning a Lombardi is the actual goal, Its time for the brainstrust to tinker with the master plan because just doing what we have done has not led to a SB appearance in over a decade now.