When not creating turnovers, the defense was not very good.
Who do you move on from?
Who must you keep?
The offense will be ok as long as Rodgers is there...the defense has to carry its weight better next year. Is there hope for improvement?
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First, give Dom a watch and a hearty handshake.
If so, please take the Secondary coaches, dyslexic and DUI, the group is a problem year after year.
For better or worse they need to figure out WTF happened this year to Rollins and Randall. They both fell off big time after a very good showing in their rookie year (2015). This issue is even more significant when you consider Shields may be finished.
Was pleased for the most part with the LBs but Peppers isn't getting any younger and they have to add more speed and athleticism to that group. You can build around guys like Ryan and Martinez but you need a Vic Beasley type to even things out.
Ahh. What's become a tradition pretty much every season save 2010. Autopsying the Packers defense. The CB problems are obvious. There also seems to be a lack of speed, including CB. Teams got to the outside running a lot.
And this isn't limited to defense , they had a DT playing in the OL at the end, but the massive amount of injuries. I know every team has them but the Packers are plagued with them every season. Especially in domed Stadiums. @Dallas and @ Atlanta back to back was lethal to the Packers health
Burnett and Dix seem to be good leaders, but the normal leader at CB, Shields, was apparently gone all year. Not just on IR, but not involved with the team (based on reports). So you have a CB room of Randall, Rollins, Gunter, Hawkins, Dorleant, etc. Maybe Hyde was there, but really who is the veteran leader? Do we even know if Hyde is a leader? No one is there to pick these young guys up when they're struggling.
1. Fire Dom Capers
2. Give new coordinator entire control over putting the defensive assistant staff together.
3. Clean out the bottom of the defensive roster. They can't afford to keep players like Goodson (when healthy) and Ringo around because they don't contribute much.
4. If Shields is done, sign the best free agent cornerback that the salary cap will allow. No chance of this happening but it should. Having spend #1 and #2 picks two drafts ago the Packers can't really afford to do that again this year and risk letting other areas of the team weaken because of CB investments in the draft. But their cornerback situation is so awful without Shields that they will have to spend two more high picks this year if they don't bring in a free agent.
5. Don't under any circumstances assume that Clay Matthews will return from injury and will once again be a dominant edge pass-rusher in 2017. Remember that 8.5 of his 11 QB sacks in 2014 came after they moved him to ILB. He hasn't been a dominant type outside rusher since 2013. If Thompson re-signs Perry and assumes that OLB is fine for 2017 it will be a mistake.
Tschmack posted:For better or worse they need to figure out WTF happened this year to Rollins and Randall.
They go into next year not knowing what they have in either. Atlanta has a dynamic offense and I expected the Packer defense to struggle but they really weren't even competitive.
Short of a complete gut job, I just don't see it getting much better.
Daniels is fine, but how much impact does a DT make in this defense?
Peppers is likely gone. Does not really matter, he looked like he is done anyway Clay has not done much at OLB in 4 seasons. If Perry is resigned we have one good OLBer and a bunch of guys.
Inside linebacker remains devoid of playmakers. Ryan, Martinez, and Thomas are just guys.
Safeties are good, but CB? Oy vey. Is there a single CB who we can rely upon next season?
And when is the last time a rookie has come in and been a difference maker on our D? Especially, considering we are picking at 29.
I'd say we need to add some talent through free agency, but we know that is a pipe dream.
PackerJoe posted:1. Fire Dom Capers
2. Give new coordinator entire control over putting the defensive assistant staff together.
3. Clean out the bottom of the defensive roster. They can't afford to keep players like Goodson (when healthy) and Ringo around because they don't contribute much.
4. If Shields is done, sign the best free agent cornerback that the salary cap will allow. No chance of this happening but it should. Having spend #1 and #2 picks two drafts ago the Packers can't really afford to do that again this year and risk letting other areas of the team weaken because of CB investments in the draft. But their cornerback situation is so awful without Shields that they will have to spend two more high picks this year if they don't bring in a free agent.
5. Don't under any circumstances assume that Clay Matthews will return from injury and will once again be a dominant edge pass-rusher in 2017. Remember that 8.5 of his 11 QB sacks in 2014 came after they moved him to ILB. He hasn't been a dominant type outside rusher since 2013. If Thompson re-signs Perry and assumes that OLB is fine for 2017 it will be a mistake.
That sounds like we would be rebuilding?
Capers needs to go, and the defense needs a serious infusion of talent, as Dan Quinn has done at Atlanta. Capers has fallen short before with more talent, but this year's D was seriously lacking. Why was Atlanta able to succeed with their blitzes and get hard shots on Rodgers, but every time the Packers sent more than four, they got stacked up. Either the schemes are horrible, or the talent is....or maybe a little bit of both.
First thing they need to do is sign a veteran corner or two, more rookies just won't cover the huge hole they have there. Problem is Stephon Gilmore is likely the best available FA CB, but I don't think he is worth the money he will be asking for. I don't think they will pay Perry, and unless the market drops out on him, I don't think they should invest huge sums in him. Peppers has nothing left in the tank; Matthews is overrated, so OLB is another huge need.
Unless they hit the jackpot in Free agency, which is not TT's MO, I would not expect drastic improvement.
Let the gut job begin. Really a waste to have a future HOF quarterback and an offense that has absolutely no margin for error because of Dom's swiss cheese defense. He may be a wizard but I still think his defense is too complex for most. If MM's teams are going to continue to be based on the "next man up" principal, the defense should be something the "next man" can pick up pretty quickly. These guys look lost.
RochNyFan posted:Problem is Stephon Gilmore is likely the best available FA CB, but I don't think he is worth the money he will be asking for.
I'd expect A.J. Bouye (Texans) to get more attention.
The glaring weakness of the defense is speed. The back 8 need an upgrade in speed. The trouble is finding speed in veterans isn't easy- most teams don't let speedy defenses hit FA.
Calais Campbell is a start up front. He's a FA.
1. Kirk Cousins QB WAS 29 Franchise
2. Chandler Jones 3-4 OLB ARI 27
3. Le’Veon Bell RB PIT 25
4. Eric Berry S KC 28 Franchise
5. A.J. Bouye CB HOU 26
6. Kawann Short DT CAR 28
7. Alshon Jeffery WR CHI 27 Franchise
8. Melvin Ingram 3-4 OLB SD 28
9. Don’t’a Hightower 4-3 OLB NE 28
10. Tony Jefferson S ARI 25
11. Kevin Zeitler G CIN 27
12. Calais Campbell 3-4 DE ARI 30
13. Jamie Collins 3-4 OLB CLE 27
14. Jason Pierre-Paul 4-3 DE NYG 28 Franchise
15. T.J. Lang G GB 29
16. Brandon Williams DT BAL 28
17. Martellus Bennett TE NE 30
18. Nick Perry 3-4 OLB GB 27
19. Trumaine Johnson CB LAR 27 Franchise
20. Mario Addison 4-3 DE CAR 29
21. Logan Ryan CB NE 26
22. Larry Warford G DET 26
23. Ricky Wagner OT BAL 27
24. Dontari Poe DT KC 27
Just a few to ponder...
Change the D Coordinator, that's fine, but our CBs struggled press man, man off, zone, and any other style of coverage...that doesn't change because of the coordinator. Gotta have a legit #1 CB and preferably a legit top 2.
Our DTs didn't get gassed against Dallas because of the coordinator. They got gassed because they played too much and there aren't adequate backups available. Gotta have better depth.
Point is, changing the coordinator won't fix all the issues. That's not me saying keep the coordinator, but rather there are more changes needed than just that.
@PackersNotes 2h2 hours agoDefense gave up 45 in 2009, 45 in 2012 and at least 44 today. Not what you want in playoffs.
The Packers have too many holes on defense to simply rely on draft and develop. They have to pick up IMO a veteran FA at CB and at OLB. After that...
1.) Move CMIII to ILB. He's healthier there, less prone to the hamstring/fatigue injuries, and he and Jake Ryan I think would be fine there.
2.) Re-sign Perry and the swiss army knife.
3.) It's a very deep draft as safety and the Packers need a play making Free safety. Burnett and HHCD are both strong safeties. Very good against the run but neither are ball hawks. The Packers have to find one.
4.) You need to get an outside/burner at CB. Someone to replace Shields. There are a couple in FA but I doubt Ted will pay the price tag for one. So that means drafting one fairly high.
5.) I think Randall will be much improved after getting healthy. He needs to hit the weight room and be much more aggressive. Rollins isn't an outside CB. He's a slot CB or another safety. He only went to the outside when all the injuries occurred.
6.) Move on from Capers and his staff. These assistants don't have these guys playing smash mouth defense. I am sick to hell of "bend don't break". F that. Find a DC and asst. coaches who will get much more out of these players. Capers had at one time 7 1st round picks playing for him, he had 10 of 11 preferred starters coming into this game. The results are not nearly good enough.
Get rid of Capers.
Get rid of Randall and Rollins.
Get rid of Demetri Goodson.
Probably Datone, too. We need to re-sign Perry after a solid season, and I don't see T.T. Ponying up for both.
Get rid of Clay IF it's not something that an operation and rehab won't cure. For the last half of the season he's been nothing but a decoy.
This was expected to be a shootout. Our defense was expected to give up yards and points. Yet our offense did not do as well as expected. So, their DB's were better than ours. I get that. However we did not live up to our end of the shootout. They had a pass rush we did not. They had a run game we did not. They forced turnovers we did not. They had open receivers we did not. This was more than a problem with our CB's. Everybody was hurting and perhaps running on fumes.
Today is too soon to lay the blame and claim a solution.
I do think if the offense had made it a shootout and the game was closer then the score wouldn't have been so high. Both groups feed off the success of the other...if one is failing then chances are good the other will fail.
They need impact players on both sides of the ball. In 2010, they had Rodgers, CM3, and Woodson - 3 likely HOFers. They had a young Raji, Nick Collins, and Greg Jennings - not HOFers, but really good players. I'd define a really good player as someone who can make a difference, but is not a HOFer.
In 2014, they had Rodgers. Nelson, Lacy, and Cobb were really good players. CM3 was beginning his decline from his prime, but was still good. Peppers was also in the really good category.
Right now, they have Rodgers and who else? Jordy Nelson and Jennings are a wash as really good p;ayers, but CM3 has dropped into the really good player category - his health hasn't allowed him to be an impact player in a few years.
Any chance of a Super Bowl trip in the next few years will likely depend on improvement from someone currently on the roster. Drafting in the 20s usually doesn't get you an immediate impact player. Maybe it's Dix? Maybe Randall or Rollins stop being the equivalent of a super speedway for WRs?
Oh, and they need an actual RB.
This year was basically Rodgers pulling wins out of his ass for a few weeks and receivers making some plays for him. When did a defensive player make a game-changing play all year? Maybe CM3 against the Giants in the playoffs? Randall with the interception at the end of the half against Seattle? They need that.
packerboi posted:
@PackersNotes 2h2 hours agoDefense gave up 45 in 2009, 45 in 2012 and at least 44 today. Not what you want in playoffs.The Packers have too many holes on defense to simply rely on draft and develop. They have to pick up IMO a veteran FA at CB and at OLB. After that...
1.) Move CMIII to ILB. He's healthier there, less prone to the hamstring/fatigue injuries, and he and Jake Ryan I think would be fine there.
3.) It's a very deep draft as safety and the Packers need a play making Free safety. Burnett and HHCD are both strong safeties. Very good against the run but neither are ball hawks. The Packers have to find one.
What do we do with all the rest of ILB if you move CMIII back inside? Trade Ryan and/or Thomas and Burnett for a #1 starting CB and a starting FS?
Those of you wanting to get rid of Clay will never happen. He has a shoulder injury that will require surgery & I'm certain that's why he was largely ineffective.
Most of the guys were hurt badly on defense. Trying to gut it out & get to the Super Bowl. I applaud them.
It is time to make a change at DC. Change is a good thing. I thank Dom for his contributions to the Packers. Truly. I mean that sincerely. It's simply time to move in another direction & give the league some "new tape"
Jody posted:If so, please take the Secondary coaches, dyslexic and DUI, the group is a problem year after year.
Oh snap!
PackerPatrick posted:This was expected to be a shootout. Our defense was expected to give up yards and points. Yet our offense did not do as well as expected. So, their DB's were better than ours. I get that. However we did not live up to our end of the shootout. They had a pass rush we did not. They had a run game we did not. They forced turnovers we did not. They had open receivers we did not. This was more than a problem with our CB's. Everybody was hurting and perhaps running on fumes.
Today is too soon to lay the blame and claim a solution.
Kind of have to disagree with all of this. After Rips fumble Atlanta tried to give GB the ball three times. Defense wasnt interested. Thats the sequence this game went south. GB had recievers open the entire game. Catching the ball is important.
I don't have any answers for this D. They're clearly more than a player away. And injuries always seem to doom them. Then again you have them getting to the nfccg after 4-6. They're just good enough to keep falling one step short. Then again only NE has been more successful since MM has been HC. At some point you just feel like you have to be happy with what you got because it's better than 94% of the rest of the league.
Cold comfort.
What do we do with all the rest of ILB if you move CMIII back inside? Trade Ryan and/or Thomas and Burnett for a #1 starting CB and a starting FS?
The Packers have 1 proven, decent ILB. Jake Ryan. Joe Thomas had a terrible game today and Blake Martinez is still a project who has to develop. The jury is still out on him. Neither are costing the team much in salary so you can keep them as depth in 2017.
When Matthews was moved inside, he made the defense better. And he stayed healthy.
The Packers will pick up HHCD's 5th year option.
We knew that we'd be overmatched by their offense however several critical plays were there to be made ...but were not:
1) First offensive series Linsley fails to pick up a delayed blitz up the middle on third down
2) We miss the FG
3) We fail to pick up an outside blitz on 3rd down & it stops a drive
4) Rip's fumble
5) Ryan's inability to recover fumble that was in his hands
6) Two dropped INTs on the same TD drive.
I may have missed a dropped pass that stopped another drive, but even with just those 6 plays, that were either mental mistakes or failed turnover opportunities, account for approx 21 pts & would have made the game competitive.
16 straight without a week off. Last 9 were in playoff mode.
packerboi posted:What do we do with all the rest of ILB if you move CMIII back inside? Trade Ryan and/or Thomas and Burnett for a #1 starting CB and a starting FS?
The Packers have 1 proven, decent ILB. Jake Ryan. Joe Thomas had a terrible game today and Blake Martinez is still a project who has to develop. The jury is still out on him. Neither are costing the team much in salary so you can keep them as depth in 2017.
When Matthews was moved inside, he made the defense better. And he stayed healthy.
The Packers will pick up HHCD's 5th year option.
Very much agree that Joe Thomas had a terrible game and that Martinez, who was our opening game starter and then just faded away, is nothing more than a project at this point.
But did YOU see Jake Ryan play today and last Sunday? Slow as molasses on the turf. Got run over by Dak and showed a complete lack of burst on the 2-point conversion.
He is as ineffective at blitzing as AJ Hawk was.
He had a fumble recover gifted to him and he still could not come up with it today.
After 2 seasons, Jake Ryan is nothing more than just a guy with very limited playmaking potential.
Agree, Ryan had a great game on the grass vs. Giants, but looked like he was one step behind vs. speed on the turf.. That is one thing that jumped out, the Falcons speed at LBer compared to ours.
I was harping on the Falcons speed all week but nobody really thought it was an issue.
First and foremost, pay AJ Bouye whatever he wants..That's a start. You tell Ted, if he doesn't spend some money in FA he's done...immediately.
Pretty sure this is a shot at TT from Arodg, and I don't blame him..
Jason Wilde @jasonjwilde 2h2 hours ago
Aaron Rodgers' plea for offseason: "We’ve just got to make sure we’re going all-in every year to win. And I think we can take a big step
RoyalWulff posted:Get rid of Capers.
Get rid of Randall and Rollins.
Get rid of Demetri Goodson.
Probably Datone, too. We need to re-sign Perry after a solid season, and I don't see T.T. Ponying up for both.
Get rid of Clay IF it's not something that an operation and rehab won't cure. For the last half of the season he's been nothing but a decoy.
They aren't getting rid of Clay, Randall or Rollins. Your other suggestions are a "definite maybe"
Teams that play in domes are always going to be faster at home. Good teams anyway. The Holmgren Packers struggled in the Metrodome. But these Packers were slow at Lambeau. Randall and Rollins in particular. LaDarius Gunter is the Packers top cover corner. He's an UDFA.
The ILB's are slow, or in the case of Joe Thomas, a specialist who should be in on obvious pass situations and playing ST's. You can get good players drafting later. NE manages it. But draft and develop needs to be tweaked to make sure its players worth developing.
I agree our DB's did not play as well as they needed to. I have no idea if it is Capers fault. I watched Brady without Gronk and much of Bennett torch the Steelers DB's too. So is it just our talent or is it coaching or some of each? Or maybe the other QB is really talented and that team is playing with a good game plan?
I have previously read good reviews of almost every player we just slammed. So what is it? I don't know.
The best Defensive Coordinators become head coaches and seldom are available for hire. So that means a position coach from somewhere and only the poor ones are available.
Unless you want to hire Rex/Rob Ryan?
PackerPatrick posted:I agree our DB's did not play as well as they needed to. I have no idea if it is Capers fault. I watched Brady without Gronk and much of Bennett torch the Steelers DB's too. So is it just our talent or is it coaching or some of each? Or maybe the other QB is really talented and that team is playing with a good game plan?
I have previously read good reviews of almost every player we just slammed. So what is it? I don't know.
The best Defensive Coordinators become head coaches and seldom are available for hire. So that means a position coach from somewhere and only the poor ones are available.
Unless you want to hire Rex/Rob Ryan?
Rex would probably work well for 2-3 years at most. He's a Jim Harbaugh type who wears out his welcome quickly. There'd be a definite jump in intensity, but probably a lot more dumb personal foul penalties as well.
Can't see MM/TT putting up with Ryan's schtick at all though. Not their style.
I'd like more of a Lovie Smith type temperment - but Lovie's defense is a 4-3 and is dependent on having ILBs that can drop back into coverage and cover the TE down the seem (Urlacher, Derrick Brooks, Briggs). We've never had that.
It would likely take 2 years to switch from 3-4 to 4-3 personnel. I can't see that happening.
ChilliJon posted:. GB had recievers open the entire game. Catching the ball is important.
Thank you!
Va. Packer posted:LaDarius Gunter is the Packers top cover corner. He's an UDFA.
And that is SAD!!!
Va. Packer posted:Teams that play in domes are always going to be faster at home. Good teams anyway. The Holmgren Packers struggled in the Metrodome. But these Packers were slow at Lambeau. Randall and Rollins in particular. LaDarius Gunter is the Packers top cover corner. He's an UDFA.
The ILB's are slow, or in the case of Joe Thomas, a specialist who should be in on obvious pass situations and playing ST's. You can get good players drafting later. NE manages it. But draft and develop needs to be tweaked to make sure its players worth developing.
NE won tonight with contributions from the following players on offense: Hogan/9 catches, 180 yards, 2 TDs (free agent), Amendola/Bennett 5 catches, 44 yards (FA & Trade), Blount 47 yards rushing & TD (free agent), Lewis 19 yards receiving/rushing.
On defense they got contributions from: Van Noy/Forced fumble (trade), Ninkovich (free agent) fumble recovery, Rowe/Interception (trade), Branch/Sheard 7 tackles combined (free agents).
This is not a complete list.
BB is the anti-TT, he frequently acquires veteran players from other teams and trades his own guys.
Draft and develop, yeah right.
Judging the defense on this loss is a mistake. The body of work just this season is enough and it's not a one season issue either. Remember the DET game in Lambeau, we jump to a 21+ point lead in the 1st half, yet they had a chance to win that game in the 4th quarter? This type of performance is too common now in GB.
Clay Matthews was not a difference maker this year. He just seems to fly by the ball and not make disruptive plays. The front 7 is not disruptive. They can be sturdy against the run at times but the D gives up way too many 3rd and long plays.
