I remember shaking my head when Favre said he wouldn't go out of his way to help Rodgers. That spoke volumes. It also made his actions a few years far less surprising.
He was a great player, but all-time greats don't go 12-10 in the playoffs and throw ridiculous interceptions in OT of playoff games. He's probably a top-10 QB, but IMO, he doesn't belong anywhere near the top 5.
quote:Originally posted by brosto1:
Favre was upset because he wanted some more weapons to compete while he was still playing, Rodgers doesn't exactly help make the Packers better while Favre was still playing.
Not very good behaviour for somone who was supposed to be a team leader. Publically criticizing the front office.
Should a player who claims loyalty to a team only care about that team during his tenure as a player? Is it to much to expect Favre to understand that the team goes on after he's gone? That the front office has to take a long term view of things?
Favre should have had enough tact and smarts to know his openly criticizing management was not good for the team and not the actions of a good team leader. Just because some reporter asked him about it doesn't mean he couldn't answer in a more neutral manner and not spout off.
I don't buy the whole good ol' boy, shoot from the hip, that's just the way he is B.S. anymore either. More than once Fvare hurt the team with his negative/complaining remarks to the press.
I Used to think he was so genuine. Not so much anymore.
quote:Originally posted by Henry:
He didn't have to be happy with it but he did have to deal with it. The pick itself is symptomatic of Favre believing he was some kind of de facto GM like he was under Sherman. Sounds like he got a wake up call.
Tell me where anyone says we think that Favre does not have to deal with it? Brosto makes my points clearer than I do.
The BPA fell to the Packers and they made a wise choice in the pick. It does not mean Favre had to like it
quote:Originally posted by section19:
Favre should have had enough tact and smarts to know his openly criticizing management was not good for the team and not the actions of a good team leader. Just because some reporter asked him about it doesn't mean he couldn't answer in a more neutral manner and not spout off.
Team leaders have criticized management since the beginning of time. The 82 Brewers' veterans basically got Buck Rodgers fired in June of that season. Micheal Jordan thought Jerry Krause was an idiot. Reggie Jackson fought with Billy Martin in the dugout.
Hell, I don't blame Favre for wanting Moss (or more weapons), I was pleading for Moss myself! Still doesn't mean TT didn't make the correct call on that...
If I grew up a Packers' fan and got drafted by the Bears. I would play as hard as I can for that team while I am with them, and could care less about the team when I am done playing there. Why does any player need to be loyal to a franchise after he is done playing for them? NFL teams use players and are not always loyal to them, why should the players be loyal to them when they are not there.
Perhaps, Favre did know that things go on and he watched throughout his career how some teams succeeded with a great defense, even teams he played on. Perhaps, he would have been fine with a defensive player or OL that helped the team then and in the future. Again, I and many others supported the choice of Rodgers, but looking at it from a player's perspective, not just Favre's but any player, I would be pissed if the team I played for selected a QB in the first round when I already had Favre on my team. From a fan's stand point and the GM stand point, I completely agree with how TT handled it.
Perhaps, Favre did know that things go on and he watched throughout his career how some teams succeeded with a great defense, even teams he played on. Perhaps, he would have been fine with a defensive player or OL that helped the team then and in the future. Again, I and many others supported the choice of Rodgers, but looking at it from a player's perspective, not just Favre's but any player, I would be pissed if the team I played for selected a QB in the first round when I already had Favre on my team. From a fan's stand point and the GM stand point, I completely agree with how TT handled it.
quote:Originally posted by BigChiefSecurity:quote:Originally posted by Henry:
He didn't have to be happy with it but he did have to deal with it. The pick itself is symptomatic of Favre believing he was some kind of de facto GM like he was under Sherman. Sounds like he got a wake up call.
Tell me where anyone says we think that Favre does not have to deal with it? Brosto makes my points clearer than I do.
The BPA fell to the Packers and they made a wise choice in the pick.
We all agree Rodgers was a the right pick. The point of contention is Favre's reaction and how it poisoned the relationship with the team. Favre "never forgave Thompson" because he "didn't get him weapons" is silly. As I pointed out, TT has used more draft picks towards offense in his tenure, specifically 3 high picks on WR (2 before he left).
Simply put, Favre didn't like the way TT was running the show and turned it into a ridiculously vindictive and petty soap opera. That is the real point.
And no one disagrees that Favre was petty about it.
But I don't blame him for being mad about that one pick...but get over it and don't publicly blast the GM for it
But I don't blame him for being mad about that one pick...but get over it and don't publicly blast the GM for it
Marino, Elway, Favre were in the league long enough to know it's a team sport. Regardless of what they contributed to their respective teams, they did't run the team or the organization. Maybe with Sherman, Favre was led to believe he had a say in running the show. Obviously, that changed with TT and MM. Favre certainly had enough time to adjust to how things would be run under their watch. IMO, dealing with it doesn't include throwing a hissy fit when the Packers didn't get Moss or hire Mouch. It certainly doesn't include saying you understand it's a business, the Packers had to move on, and then throw everyone under the bus. No player in the NFL is hired and paid big bucks to second-guess management. If they want to make management decisions, retire and become an HC or GM, otherwise shutup and play the game.
quote:Originally posted by BigChiefSecurity:
And no one disagrees that Favre was petty about it.
But I don't blame him for being mad about that one pick...but get over it and don't publicly blast the GM for it
We agree. Going to watch the Werder/Favre interview right now.
quote:Originally posted by pacfan:
Marino, Elway, Favre were in the league long enough to know it's a team sport. Regardless of what they contributed to their respective teams, they did't run the team or the organization.
My recollection of Marino was yelling at teammates and I know he and Jimmy Johnson didn't see eye-to-eye. I also know that Elway and Dan Reeves weren't on the best of terms.
Seems they were all similar. Elway got the pot at the end of the rainbow however. That pot we thought number 4 may get before the January game we don't speak about.
Favre had an enabler
being allowed special treatment all the time, input on team decisions. Seperate lockerroom.....on and on.
Holmgren would not put up with his BS.
Ray Rhodes was the beginning of the downhill slide for Favre and SugarBear fast tracked it.
Then TT and MM come in and after being able to run roughshod for all those years he was reeled in again and acted like a 3 yo.
being allowed special treatment all the time, input on team decisions. Seperate lockerroom.....on and on.
Holmgren would not put up with his BS.
Ray Rhodes was the beginning of the downhill slide for Favre and SugarBear fast tracked it.
Then TT and MM come in and after being able to run roughshod for all those years he was reeled in again and acted like a 3 yo.
quote:Originally posted by chickenboy:
Team leaders have criticized management since the beginning of time. The 82 Brewers' veterans basically got Buck Rodgers fired in June of that season. Micheal Jordan thought Jerry Krause was an idiot. Reggie Jackson fought with Billy Martin in the dugout.
Criticizing coaches is a lot different than criticizing the front office. Jordan was not alone in that opinion of Krause and from all indications Favre was in his of Thompson.
quote:Originally posted by chickenboy:
Team leaders have criticized management since the beginning of time. The 82 Brewers' veterans basically got Buck Rodgers fired in June of that season. Micheal Jordan thought Jerry Krause was an idiot. Reggie Jackson fought with Billy Martin in the dugout.
Personally, I would say those players also showed a decided lack of leadership (and class) by behaving that way. More examples of obnoxious self-centered behaviour does not IMO help justify Favre's actions.
Bitching to the press about your team is divisive and does a good job of making the player appear to be less concerned with his team and more concerned with only himself.
Never said I agreed with that behavior, just stated that it is fairly common with "superstars." I agree that Jordan wasn't alone in his criticism of Krause but if you go through the personnel moves he made from firing Collins and hiring Jackson to trading Oakley and bringing in Cartwright...he was pretty much right on with fine-tuning that team to win all those titles. Obviously he didn't continue that success after Jordan but he never let the game's best-ever player run his team...just like TT.
For clarity, I was/am on the TT/org's side of the issue. I just lean toward blowing off Favre's ego/antics because his ego/antics are what made him successful. It just doesn't bother me that much.
For clarity, I was/am on the TT/org's side of the issue. I just lean toward blowing off Favre's ego/antics because his ego/antics are what made him successful. It just doesn't bother me that much.
I thought most agreed that if Favre had stayed retired most people wouldn't have a lot of the negative feelings for him that they have, so what's the big deal about him resenting Rodgers being drafted. He played for the Packers three years after that, two of which were fairly successful. It didn't necessarily have any impact on what happened last offseason, which is what most people hold against him. He might have still retired in March, still wanted to come back in July, and the team would have had some other young quarterback who'd been through all the minicamps as the No. 1 guy who they might have been reluctant to pull the plug on for an indecisive 38-year-old.
Favre's actions last offseason were unprofessional and selfish. At the same time, he decided he wanted to come back and the Packers didn't want him to come back. He said he wanted to return, they said -- quite reasonably -- we've moved on. Clearly, they weren't too thrilled about the prospect of having either a quarterback controversy or trading him, given that either move would have been divisive, controversial, unpopular. They were hoping he would change his mind again and quietly go away. Going on Hack news and blasting the organization sucked but it probably went a long way to convincing the team he was serious and that they had to deal with things by shipping his ass out of town.
I guess that's part of why I -- and yeah, I realize most here feel differently -- don't begrudge him for most of that. He wanted to play football again and they wanted him to stay retired. Everything that followed after that was those two diametrically opposed desires crashing into each other until the Packers shipped him off to the Jets.
Favre's actions last offseason were unprofessional and selfish. At the same time, he decided he wanted to come back and the Packers didn't want him to come back. He said he wanted to return, they said -- quite reasonably -- we've moved on. Clearly, they weren't too thrilled about the prospect of having either a quarterback controversy or trading him, given that either move would have been divisive, controversial, unpopular. They were hoping he would change his mind again and quietly go away. Going on Hack news and blasting the organization sucked but it probably went a long way to convincing the team he was serious and that they had to deal with things by shipping his ass out of town.
I guess that's part of why I -- and yeah, I realize most here feel differently -- don't begrudge him for most of that. He wanted to play football again and they wanted him to stay retired. Everything that followed after that was those two diametrically opposed desires crashing into each other until the Packers shipped him off to the Jets.
Going on hack news and blasting the organization more than sucked, it did have a divisive effect on the team. And while it may have gone a long way to convincing the team he was serious, I believe he could have done that in person and accomplished the same result of playing for someone else. His biggest problem, and yes it is Favre's problem, is that he didn't want to talk to Thompson for whatever the reason(s).
quote:Originally posted by Max:
I thought most agreed that if Favre had stayed retired most people wouldn't have a lot of the negative feelings for him that they have, so what's the big deal about him resenting Rodgers being drafted.
Not a big deal. Using it as a reason to run some kind of vendetta against his boss? HUGE DEAL! Favre is one patheic man. 3 years later he was carrying those feelings even after TT had helped deliver a 13-3 season to him.
quote:Originally posted by chickenboy:
Never said I agreed with that behavior, just stated that it is fairly common with "superstars." I agree that Jordan wasn't alone in his criticism of Krause but if you go through the personnel moves he made from firing Collins and hiring Jackson to trading Oakley and bringing in Cartwright...he was pretty much right on with fine-tuning that team to win all those titles. Obviously he didn't continue that success after Jordan but he never let the game's best-ever player run his team...just like TT.
Basketball to football is like Ice Cream to Dry Ice.
I guess it depends how important you think that "vendetta" was. Did it have an impact on anything that happened? I don't know that it did. If Thompson and Favre were best friends things might have gone down exactly as they did, at least in terms of the important things. Maybe Ed Werder and Mortensen would have gotten fewer columns, but Favre probably would have still retired, the Packers would have still spent the offseason prepping another quarterback, and things still might have ended up with Favre quarterbacking the Jets last year, albeit with less ugliness along the way.
Favre asked for his release because he just wanted to play somewhere.
Something is wrong with TOG being upset with TT drafting "his replacement" at the time he did it. After all, for all the years the TOG was out QB, he had a backup. Many of those backups, after sitting on the bench for a year or more, became starting QBs for other teams. In other words, it was nothing new to have a new replacement QB drafted to sit behind Favre. IMHO the big problem with TOG was that he felt he was bigger than the team the past several years. He wanted to tell the Packers who to hire as coach, who to trade for at WR, etc. He got away with these things and many others, such as not having to be at some of the training and practice sessions, private locker room, etc. but when the Pack got a strong GM and coach who were trying to make sure the Packers had a QB to replace Favre, and started telling Favre who was the boss, Brett just could not take it. His arrogance was shown in his actions last summer. TT and MM had the best interests of the GBPackers in mind, not the wishes of a prima donna like TOG!! They made the right decision!!
What was the impact of this "vendetta"? 13-3 seems like a pretty good record.
I think some of you guys underestimate the backbone and the intelligence of Ted and Mike to think that Favre's indecisiveness on retirement and his superstar ways paralyzed those two. Ted and Mike are talented guys who have done and I'm confident will continue to do a good job. Opinions from a former Packer aren't going to alter the business at hand. Fans get twisted over the rhetoric but I doubt Ted and Mike have lost one iota of sleep over it.
I think some of you guys underestimate the backbone and the intelligence of Ted and Mike to think that Favre's indecisiveness on retirement and his superstar ways paralyzed those two. Ted and Mike are talented guys who have done and I'm confident will continue to do a good job. Opinions from a former Packer aren't going to alter the business at hand. Fans get twisted over the rhetoric but I doubt Ted and Mike have lost one iota of sleep over it.
quote:Originally posted by Max:
I guess it depends how important you think that "vendetta" was. Did it have an impact on anything that happened? I don't know that it did.
Rodgers has said that the side-show of last summer had an effect on the team for the 2008 season.
quote:Originally posted by Hungry5:
Rodgers has said that the side-show of last summer had an effect on the team for the 2008 season.
I thought it was because of poor coaching by the defensive staff, 27th against the rush, no pass rush, losing close games, going with a lousy punter, OL having their share of issues, Rodgers starting for the very first time (although he acquitted himself well).
Yeah, even if that's what AR honestly thinks, GB starting out 2-0 basically tossed out the Great Monkey Poop Fight of '08 as a viable excuse AFAIC.
Another take on Favre's retirement from Atlanta Journal Constitution columnist Mark Bradley. He begins the piece this way:
"When last Brett Favre retired, he wept. If he unretires again, I’ll weep. I never want to see him throw another interception. I feel like I’ve seen every one of them — all 310, if you’re counting — and yet I feel utterly alone in my opinion.
Which is this: Brett Favre is the most overrated athlete of our time."
Favre Retires Again
"When last Brett Favre retired, he wept. If he unretires again, I’ll weep. I never want to see him throw another interception. I feel like I’ve seen every one of them — all 310, if you’re counting — and yet I feel utterly alone in my opinion.
Which is this: Brett Favre is the most overrated athlete of our time."
Favre Retires Again
quote:Originally posted by Max:
I guess that's part of why I -- and yeah, I realize most here feel differently -- don't begrudge him for most of that. He wanted to play football again and they wanted him to stay retired. Everything that followed after that was those two diametrically opposed desires crashing into each other until the Packers shipped him off to the Jets.
You and me both Max. I don't fault the team or Favre. It was a divorce. The guy changed his mind and wanted to play. Big deal. He had some things against the GM. Big deal (many players in pro sports can say the same thing). The team had a player they were readying, and wanted to go with. Big deal.
I won't ever understand how mad people got on both sides.
quote:Originally posted by Oldtimer:
Another take on Favre's retirement from Atlanta Journal Constitution columnist Mark Bradley. He begins the piece this way:
"When last Brett Favre retired, he wept. If he unretires again, I’ll weep. I never want to see him throw another interception. I feel like I’ve seen every one of them — all 310, if you’re counting — and yet I feel utterly alone in my opinion.
Which is this: Brett Favre is the most overrated athlete of our time."
Favre Retires Again
This is precious. The guy has most of the records you could want as a QB, a sure HOF selection, and that's "overrated"? God's sake, some of the fools that weigh on in this thing and there worthless opinions are enough to make one say "gosh darn".
Interesting article. Thanks for whoever posted the link. I don't think Favre is THE MOST overrated player in NFL history, but he's certainly right up there.
As Rod Woodson said, Favre has averaged almost 18 interceptions per season for his entire career, which is a lot. Woodson said, and I agree, that Favre will be a certain inductee into the Hall of Fame, but that he will be there as the QB with the worst judgement in the history of the game.
The long and short is that Favre threw way too many interceptions, not just in his career, but in big games which his team lost, to be considered the best QB in NFL history.
But the writer of the article, Mark Bradley, is right about one thing though; the best QB in the history of the Green Bay Packers is not Brett Favre, it's Bart Starr.
As Rod Woodson said, Favre has averaged almost 18 interceptions per season for his entire career, which is a lot. Woodson said, and I agree, that Favre will be a certain inductee into the Hall of Fame, but that he will be there as the QB with the worst judgement in the history of the game.
The long and short is that Favre threw way too many interceptions, not just in his career, but in big games which his team lost, to be considered the best QB in NFL history.
But the writer of the article, Mark Bradley, is right about one thing though; the best QB in the history of the Green Bay Packers is not Brett Favre, it's Bart Starr.
I agree Favre is easily in top 10 all time QBs but no way top 5, too many INTs.
Here is my contribution to the Tom Oates article forum:
"As for me, I'll believe Favre is finished when I see Tarvaris Jackson take the first snap for the Vikings next season." -Tom Oates
As for me, I'll believe Minnesota is finished when I see Tarvaris Jackson take the first snap for the Vikings next season. - GreenBayLA
Don't forget some team could have an injury at QB during season and try to lure Favre out of retirement...
Here is my contribution to the Tom Oates article forum:
"As for me, I'll believe Favre is finished when I see Tarvaris Jackson take the first snap for the Vikings next season." -Tom Oates
As for me, I'll believe Minnesota is finished when I see Tarvaris Jackson take the first snap for the Vikings next season. - GreenBayLA
Don't forget some team could have an injury at QB during season and try to lure Favre out of retirement...