LET THE LOVE ERA BEGIN.

@CUPackFan posted:

Still think the plan should be to let Rodgers guide the front office.  If he wants back and is 100% committed before the start of free agency, the Packers should mortgage the future and bring it all back for one more year.  If Rodgers doesn't commit 100%, then you trade him and start the rebuild.  This is not going from Favre to Rodgers in 2007.  The gap between Rodgers and Love right now is much greater than the gap between Favre and Rodgers in 2007.  Plus, Favre wasn't 100% committed.

Just don't think this'll be a decision forced by the front office.  The decision is going to be forced by Rodgers.

OR Rodgers' willingness to work something out FINANCIALLY so he has enough talent around him to make a Super Bowl run.

@Herschel posted:

Stafford is a very good QB. He’s currently #12 in career TD passes and he’s younger than everyone ahead of him, and Rodgers may be the last of those active next season (Ryan, Roethlisberger and Brady). Russell Wilson is the closest guy behind him at 15 and Flacco is next, tied at #32 with Cutler, just ahead of Dalton, Cousins and Fitzpatrick.

The simple fact is tHe vast majority of Super Bowls are won by teams with elite QBs. People like to bring up Trent Dilfer and Jim McMahon, but leave out those guys won one with historic defenses AND running games. Not just very good, but all-time great units.

Good points, Herschel.  The Cowboys of the 90's had essentially a game manager in Troy Aikman, but elite players at a few skill positions and an adequate defense that only needed to hold the offense a few times a game due to their superior run game.  Point is, there are other paths.

AR is an elite QB, but we've won the title once during his tenure.  For the last two years, we've had statistically the best chances to win and fell short both times.  We've been to the playoffs numerous times and fell short.  That's not all on AR, but it goes to show how hard it is to win even with an elite QB.  To say we have our best shot at the title with AR is true, however, there's not a great track record to back that up.

@YATittle posted:

OR Rodgers' willingness to work something out FINANCIALLY so he has enough talent around him to make a Super Bowl run.

That's easy enough. Back loaded contract with voidable years, etc.

It's really two things.

1. Does Rodgers want to stay?

2. How many guaranteed years of salary?

All the rest is cap management stuff.

@Harry Manback posted:

Right.  I don't think post AR will be as dark as some fear.  Especially if we have extra ammo to go after a QB in 2023.  The QB may not be Favre or AR, but teams have won SB's without QB's like them.  Good defense, good running game, good offensive scheme and other skill players, and it can be done.  Who thought Pads Statsford would be in a SB with a good chance to win it?  Who thought the Bengals would make the turnaround they did?  There are different avenues for winning the big game.

Who really knows. It depends on whether Jordan Love can develop, or if we can get the chance to draft the next star QB, or even if the FO have the ability spot that next guy.

What I do know is Aaron Rodgers has had a decade to win a second and he and the team have failed.

@PackerHawk posted:

If Love had played even in the same ballpark as Rodgers vs Cowboys 2007 in either the KC or Det game this year I'd feel a lot better about handing him the keys now.

The Cowboys game took place during Rodgers 3rd year. Rodgers played the Pats during his second year and made Jordan Love's 2021 appearance look all world.

@PackerHawk posted:

If the team thinks Love is the guy, then move forward. But you gotta be sure before you trade away a 4 time MVP even if he is knocking on 40 years old.

I see no indication he's the guy.  But trading AR means more draft/player capital giving us the ability to both build an elite defense by being able to keep what we already have, possibly add a player or two, and draft more help.  We could finally draft an elite receiver, add a really good TE in 2022, draft a few other good offensive pieces in 2024, and be in good position to draft a QB who's good enough to make us a contender, hopefully a SB winner.

Keeping AR means our best shot at a SB title this year.  But it's a shot, right?  Nothing's guaranteed.  And given the poor track record we have of getting to the SB in even the most favorable of conditions the last two years even with an elite QB, as optimistic and as hopeful as I usually am, I can't bring myself to have the confidence that the next SB will be won by the Packers.  We'll see how it all turns out.  It's going to be an interesting off season for sure.

@Harry Manback posted:

Good points, Herschel.  The Cowboys of the 90's had essentially a game manager in Troy Aikman, but elite players at a few skill positions and an adequate defense that only needed to hold the offense a few times a game due to their superior run game.  Point is, there are other paths.

AR is an elite QB, but we've won the title once during his tenure.  For the last two years, we've had statistically the best chances to win and fell short both times.  We've been to the playoffs numerous times and fell short.  That's not all on AR, but it goes to show how hard it is to win even with an elite QB.  To say we have our best shot at the title with AR is true, however, there's not a great track record to back that up.

That Cowboys team was LOADED! A "few" skill positions? WR1, TE, RB, FB were elite. The offensive line was one of the best ever and Aikman played under control. He didn't let his ego run his game. If his defense had given up 6 points in any of his play off games he would have won 100% of them.

They were also loaded on defense.

I feel the need to point out that the Packers absolutely have/had the talent to win it all, despite Rodgers' high salary.  The problem is, as it has frequently been for them, that they lost a lot of that talent due to injuries (and they have crappy special teams).  It looked like the stars might have been aligned for some of those injured players to return for a deep playoff run, but it happened just a little too late (and I still can't understand the decision at LT, but that's coaching).  The fact that the Packers persevered through those injuries to get the number one seed is a testament to Rodgers' talent as much as anything else, but it was too much to overcome in the playoffs (especially given the crappy special teams).  Yeah, Rodgers made some mistakes, but some still consider him to be an MVP level talent and it would be hard to defend letting him go if he wants to stay.   

Well said, Doc.  Yeah, that was a real head scratcher for me on the decision to put Turner at LT.  Turned out not to be a good move as most of us armchair coaches could have told MFL.  It takes a lot of things to go right to win a SB, along with a little luck. 

@Goalline posted:

The Cowboys game took place during Rodgers 3rd year. Rodgers played the Pats during his second year and made Jordan Love's 2021 appearance look all world.

Yeah, I know he had an extra year plus he had full preseasons and much more involved training camps and mini camps compared to now. But I just don't see it yet. I see a scared kid out there most of the time.

@PackerHawk posted:

Yeah, I know he had an extra year plus he had full preseasons and much more involved training camps and mini camps compared to now. But I just don't see it yet. I see a scared kid out there most of the time.

I was at Josh Allen's first game at Lambeau with the Bills and saw the same thing. We shut them out.

Look at him now.

@PackerHawk posted:

Yeah, I know he had an extra year plus he had full preseasons and much more involved training camps and mini camps compared to now. But I just don't see it yet. I see a scared kid out there most of the time.

Yup, I do too. This offseason will tell. The point is that neither MLF nor the FO see it yet.

@YATittle posted:

OR Rodgers' willingness to work something out FINANCIALLY so he has enough talent around him to make a Super Bowl run.

Exactly.  Rodgers has to be all in on 2023 for the front office go for it one more time and that includes money.  If Rodgers won't work his contract to bring everyone back and is just lukewarm on returning, then it's time to trade him.  What happened last offseason can't happen this offseason. 

As Brandt and others have said , it all comes down to Love. It is more than money , or being "all in" for next year. It is about when and if, they plan to play Love. If the plan is to play him in '23 even if AR were to come back next season, I think AR would want to leave now. The tricky situation started when they drafted Love ...things the FO & MLF didn't count on that have made it even more messy are  1) AR would "buy in" to the offensive system as much as he has 2) AR would win 2 MVPs 3) Love would not progress as quickly as they thought. The Packers losing 2 straight years at home in the playoffs just adds to the uncertainty of which way to go is best. The only situation that I can think of that is similar is  Jimmy G with NE, although he was a second round pick. It really looked like BB was just waiting for an excuse to replace Brady with Jimmy G when Kraft stepped in and told BB that he had to trade him. Going to be interesting to see what happens.

Love is a back up until he proves he can play unless the Packers decide to rebuild. Then they will throw him out there.

@YATittle posted:

I was at Josh Allen's first game at Lambeau with the Bills and saw the same thing. We shut them out.

Look at him now.

I have family members who live in the Buffalo area and they tell me that the coaching staff there had to totally rework Allen’s fundamentals. The talent was there but he had many bad habits and techniques that had to be reworked. The addition of a stud WR allowed him to get away with some of his recklessness. And the guy runs fearless.
I can see how improvements in Love’s fundamentals will help yet am unsure if the team wants him to play like Allen does when he keeps risking himself in all those runs.

Love doesn't lack from bad mechanics, well mostly.  He truly has all the tools.  He can make the throws, plays from the pocket.  It's the decision making.  That's tougher to fix if it can be fixed at all.

Rodgers held the ball high and had to change his footwork some.  Allen, as you stated, needed his mechanics addressed just the same.  Every rookie QB takes their lumps and has to catch up with the speed of the game.  Normally you see young QBs getting happy feet or scrambling too quick when they feel pressure.  Love doesn't see/feel pressure at all at this point.  That is a huge issue.

This is what Love needs to improve his awareness.  Make him live with Cato.

@Henry posted:

Love doesn't lack from bad mechanics, well mostly.  He truly has all the tools.  He can make the throws, plays from the pocket.  It's the decision making.  That's tougher to fix if it can be fixed at all.

Rodgers held the ball high and had to change his footwork some.  Allen, as you stated, needed his mechanics addressed just the same.  Every rookie QB takes their lumps and has to catch up with the speed of the game.  Normally you see young QBs getting happy feet or scrambling too quick when they feel pressure.  Love doesn't see/feel pressure at all at this point.  That is a huge issue.

His mechanics aren’t actually that great. That part can only be fixed with practice. The pressure recognition thing comes with experience. That’s one area I try not to judge young QBs too harshly on. The decision making better improve. It is awful.

Oh shit, the biggest Packer homer on x4 is getting downvoted for hard truths. 

Keep your head on the swivel Robespierre. 

I do wonder if it’s the ability to anticipate and play at NFL game speed.   Love just seems to be a step slow in how quickly he processes and executes plays.  That leads to sacks and poor throws.

We’ve been so spoiled by Rodgers and his almost supernatural abilities that Love just looks so much worse.  

Mechanics don’t mean shit if you play scared and can’t process decisions quickly. It can’t be easy for a guy like Love knowing that the guy he watches every day in practice is a HOF and excels at everything you don’t.

Excels at throwing into double coverage in the playoffs when the game is on the line?

Probably triple coverage.  Nice red herring though.

Don't worry Goalline, I'll distract them, you make a run for England.  I know a guy called the Scarlet Pimpernel.  He gets results.  Just ignore the 10 Vietnamese women on the other side of the hold.

If Love’s the next then he needs @ four to six games to see what he has in regular season with a veteran backup ready.  

And an offense designed around his skills.

his inaccuracy is the problem.  not sure that can be fixed

Commenting on the decision making of a QB is an exercise in futility. But it can fuel some fun debates.

Ten years ago Phil Simms was on with Mike Francesa and said the first two years that he saw of Rodgers in camp he saw little to impress him. Then when he watched him in camp the third year he [Rodgers] was a completely different player.

We have to trust the coaches when it comes to Love (and other matters of the heart).  I still feel 50/50 that AR stays or goes. I actually think it is complex to trade an MVP and get equal value back. 

I never would have guessed though,  even after the Favre debacle, the GB would be pining to trade the MVP moments after his MVP season*.  Can't wait to either see Love grow or listen to people Blame Rodgers for not living up to a "loses are on him" narrative. 

*I think Rodger played poorly against SF

About the only outlier in recent history is Allen in Buffalo.  His accuracy and decision making (in college) was terrible but he possessed elite arm strength and size and toughness.  His moxie and competitive drive was probably undervalued.

In any event, it’s been well established that Buffalo basically had to just about tear him down completely and rebuild him to make him what he is today.  It also didn’t hurt that the Bills went out and acquired Diggs as another weapon for him.

I like Jordan Love as a prospect but I also have a number of concerns about him that may prevent him from becoming a starting caliber QB.  

That being said, if Rodgers wants to move on I don’t think it’s the end of the world either.  A trade will certainly bring back multiple picks or players in return, and if Love flames out in 2022 that likely means they will be in pretty good draft position after the year to reload some more.  If Love advances and develops, that’s OK too.  

The balance of power in the NFL has clearly shifted to the AFC and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.   Even if Love is game manager, middle of the road type guy this team is good enough (still) to compete for the division title. 

If Rodgers wants to be back, then GB will find a way to bring him back.  I don’t think for one second that Gute or MM or MLF want to be the ones that force the issue.

I have absolutely no idea what Rodgers is thinking other than I doubt he retires.  I think 50/50 sounds about right and as a fan I’ve prepared myself either way.  

What makes a trade interesting is what if Rodgers really wants to go to a team like SF or Tampa?  Obviously the Packers wouldn’t want to do that, but 12 could become difficult and force the issue anyway.

I’m just at the point that I want a decision to be made so we can move on to 2022 already.

@RapSheet:  The relationship between QB Aaron Rodgers & the #Packers is in as good a spot as it has been in a long time, leading to optimism and hope that he will choose to return. GB is willing to do what is necessary contract-wise to make it happen.

https://www.nfl.com/news/aaron...-on-his-future-looms

@RapSheet: What would an Aaron Rodgers contract extension look like? Likely two years for more than $45M per year, with voidable years tacked on for cap reasons.

@Tschmack posted:

I like Jordan Love as a prospect but I also have a number of concerns about him that may prevent him from becoming a starting caliber QB. 

There's a reason he was drafted where he was and my biggest concern with him continues to be his accuracy.

Don't know if he'll ultimately pan out but the odds of hitting on a QB at that point in the draft are relatively small.

If the Packers commit to Aaron for two years, they will have wasted the Jordan Love pick.
I know what you're saying: "Who cares, it's Aaron!"
But they care.
These are not the Rams; they are the "Draft and Develop" Packers.

— Andrew Brandt (@AndrewBrandt) February 13, 2022

Basically an admission by the organization that their evaluation of Love was wrong.

Disagree.  It's more of an admission that GB didn't know 12 would win back to back MVP's at this stage of his career.  I sure as hell wouldn't have predicted that either.  

At this point... I couldn't care less about the #1 pick used on Love.  

@michiganjoe posted:

If the Packers commit to Aaron for two years, they will have wasted the Jordan Love pick.
I know what you're saying: "Who cares, it's Aaron!"
But they care.
These are not the Rams; they are the "Draft and Develop" Packers.

— Andrew Brandt (@AndrewBrandt) February 13, 2022

Interesting that Brandt would metaphorically capitalize and air quote "Draft and Develop".

"Draft and Develop" needs to evolve.  Congratulatory draft weinie fart smellers.

The Packers need an organizational structure that lets the draft weinie's take control at the beginning of a rebuild then by year 4 they go back to their draft weinie holes and do nothing but think of the draft while guys like Brandt take the reins.

Believe the organization would be fine with moving on from AR regardless of the MVP play if they were confident in Love and their evaluation of him.

@ilcuqui posted:

@RapSheet:  The relationship between QB Aaron Rodgers & the #Packers is in as good a spot as it has been in a long time, leading to optimism and hope that he will choose to return. GB is willing to do what is necessary contract-wise to make it happen.

https://www.nfl.com/news/aaron...-on-his-future-looms

@RapSheet: What would an Aaron Rodgers contract extension look like? Likely two years for more than $45M per year, with voidable years tacked on for cap reasons.

Even I have a problem with that unless a big chunk comes in the form of bonuses and doesn't hit the cap immediately.  Not sure how much the cap number goes up but that's a consideration as well.  If it's pushed down the road, fine.  This team should go full rebuild when Rodgers is gone anyways.

If that contract happens without the ability to not just maintain but build up the defense right now, forget it.

@michiganjoe posted:

Believe the organization would be fine with moving on from AR regardless of the MVP play if they were confident in Love and their evaluation of him.

I think so too, it would be the prudent, forward thinking, proactive thing to do.  Buy low sell high.  But no one in the FO want to be seen as the guy who shit canned AR.

Who would?

@michiganjoe posted:

Believe the organization would be fine with moving on from AR regardless of the MVP play if they were confident in Love and their evaluation of him.

I think you're right. Love seemed completely clueless to the pressure around him in addition to horrible decision making. I just don't know if some of that stuff can be taught....