If he really was changing the plays that much, why didn't MM pull or bench him?
Oh that's right, same reason he didn't bench Brett at halftime of the Giants Championship game.
"If that wasn't Brett Favre, I'd bench his a$$", now just insert Aaron Rodgers name there.
Maybe Pittsburgh Macho wasn't so macho after all.
You're the coach, take charge.
Timpranillo posted:Also I'm beginning to shift my thinking more and more than if I'd point to 1 person that is most responsible for this, it's Thompson.
Ultimately, it's Mark Murphy. And he's not Bob Harlan.
Maybe Pittsburgh Macho wasn't so macho after all.
Like someone said, it was a phony facade.
chickenboy posted:Grave Digger posted:So Dunne's sources are Ryan Grant, DuJuan Harris, Jermichael Finley, Greg Jennings, and a few "unnamed sources". Several of those "unnamed source" quotes sound like stuff we've heard from Rodgers estranged brothers. Really hard hitting stuff.
I realize that Gregarious J and Jerrymandering Findoodle are always available for a ARodg-ripping quote but there is plenty meat on the bone in that piece. To dismiss it entirely is silly, IMO. Also, there is the 'ol 'where there's smoke there's fire' comment and my word, there has been plenty of smoke…
Where is the meat? You mean the third-hand account, that started with a masseuse to an unnamed source, of MM getting a massage during a team meeting? Very meaty stuff. Or is it the transcript of a phone conversation between two people, neither of which was the "unnamed source" for the article? It's all rumor and speculation. Greg Jennings is probably the most reliable part of the whole thing and he hasn't been with the organization in 7 ****ing years.
I don't dismiss the whole thing. I believe McCarthy did lose the entire team, probably because they were losing and MM was clearly a lame duck. He deserved to be fired. I also believe Rodgers is probably a huge dick if you aren't his friend. Neither of which is controversial and neither of which requires quotes from former players and unnamed sources to figure out. I will tell you who the main unnamed sources were: Jordan Rodgers, Luke Rodgers, Winston Moss, Elliott Wolf, and Alonzo Highsmith. All of them have hard feelings toward the organization or Rodgers and were mixed in enough either with Rodgers, other players, or in meetings to know this information. This is article is crap because it's reality TV, it's painting the organization like it's Real Housewives of Lombardi Ave rather than provide facts. Things were disjointed, things weren't working well, and that's why the team lost. The why is pretty irrelevant honestly.
Grave Digger posted:The why is pretty irrelevant honestly.
I'm not arguing that the "why" is the end all be all for us fans beyond the interesting article, but as an organization, the "why" has to be relevant. The "why" is how you assess what and how to change. Ignoring "why" you aren't succeeding or "why" no one is communicating on the same page only continued to allow the issues to fester.
Continuously examining why you are failing - and maybe even more importantly why you are succeeding - is completely relevant for successful organizations.
Yes Murphy had to determine why the team was losing. Looking back the reason the team was losing really came down to cohesion across the organization. TT and MM were obviously disconnected and there was an obvious issue with talent, so Murphy found a new GM. That didn't help and it became obvious MM and the team were disconnected. Finding a GM who would communicate with the HC and finding a HC who would get the respect of the lockerroom is really what Murphy had to solve. The article spends zero time exploring that why and instead wants us to focus on interpersonal relationships and drama. Drilling down on MM's personal relationship with AR is pretty irrelevant for Murphy's purposes. The HC/OC and QB don't have to be best friends, they just have to do their jobs.
YATittle posted:Successful groups think they can just keep doing what they do - hell it worked before. Innovation gets stifled because it's just easier to say "I'm not changing, this worked before". That leads to complacency.
We do what we do.
So how did Bo Ryan succeed for so long?
There is nothing that another draft that brought in a couple of guys like Clay Matthews and BJ Raji couldn't have fixed. If that had happened, all these soap opera things would have been laughed about 20 years later in a 30 for 30 documentary on ESPN on how the Packers managed to win multiple titles while Rodgers and MM constantly ragged on each other behind the scenes (and then there'd have been a scene where a 70 year old MM and a 50 year old AR would be laughing about it).
Julius Peppers - who has no reason to BS either way - called Rodgers "an all-time great teammate" and specifically thanked MM.
MM got a bit lazy, AR got a bit entitled, and a bunch of clowns (Jennings and Finley right at the top of the list) didn't get the money they thought they deserved.
Grave Digger posted:Yes Murphy had to determine why the team was losing. Looking back the reason the team was losing really came down to cohesion across the organization. TT and MM were obviously disconnected and there was an obvious issue with talent, so Murphy found a new GM. That didn't help and it became obvious MM and the team were disconnected. Finding a GM who would communicate with the HC and finding a HC who would get the respect of the lockerroom is really what Murphy had to solve.
Grave Digger posted:The article spends zero time exploring that why and instead wants us to focus on interpersonal relationships and drama.
I'm not saying the article is 100% accurate in everything, but I'm just confused with your saying that the article "instead wants to focus on interpersonal relationships" when every single thing you listed that Murphy needed to determine how to fix: lack of cohesion, people being disconnected, people not communicating, and respect for leadership are, in fact, interpersonal relationships.
MichiganPacker2 posted:YATittle posted:Successful groups think they can just keep doing what they do - hell it worked before. Innovation gets stifled because it's just easier to say "I'm not changing, this worked before". That leads to complacency.
We do what we do.
So how did Bo Ryan succeed for so long?
College coaches get a complete roster change of new players every 4 years.
I'm sure some stuff in that article is true, I'm sure some is fluff, and I'm sure some is just made up.
Regardless, what I do know is that the Packers have had two first ballot HOF quarterbacks--one considered the best statistical QB to ever come through the NFL--running the show for a significant majority of the last 28 years. They've been to the Super Bowl three times. Something is amiss, because looking at the rosters for many of those years there's a dynasty there that never was--especially looking at 2011-2018.
NumberThree posted:I'm sure some stuff in that article is true, I'm sure some is fluff, and I'm sure some is just made up.
Regardless, what I do know is that the Packers have had two first ballot HOF quarterbacks--one considered the best statistical QB to ever come through the NFL--running the show for a significant majority of the last 28 years. They've been to the Super Bowl three times. Something is amiss, because looking at the rosters for many of those years there's a dynasty there that never was--especially looking at 2011-2018.
The 1995-1998 Packer team was a much more talented team. The defensive talent was A LOT better than the 2011-18 team. Reggie White, Santana Dotson, LeRoy Butler, Sean Jones, Gilbert Brown, and a young Craig Newsome. Woodson Nick Collins, Raji, and CM3 were at that level, but that late 1990s team may have had the one of the best DLs in NFL history.
Everything on the internet is true.
The most damning thing in the article is MM missing final walk thru meetings. Especially because of his anger in his interview yesterday of people saying he wasn't accountable. Even if the massage thing is false, it's a bad look for the team. I'm sure in his mind he was just letting his assistants get more experience, but it's that sort of thing that will slowly lose a locker room.
The one interesting point in the article was when Grant said when he was there Rodgers didn't have to lead, because they had leaders at each position to handle that position. Now everyone is looking to Rodgers to lead the entire team and that's asinine. Each position group should be policing itself. Let Rodgers play QB.
My biggest gripe with the article is it paints Murphy as being the only adult in the room. And I think we know that's a load.
YATittle posted:Maybe Pittsburgh Macho wasn't so macho after all.
Like someone said, it was a phony facade.
The Sons of the Monongahela disagree with your assessment. Frankly, they like the makeup of the coaches room.
Jebus...if there was ever a pair more in need of pigment...
And an orthodontist. Murphy's like a photo negative of Strahan
Is that sort of stuff important to you? Seems rather childish.
Whether exaggerated of not, you know a large portion of what's being reported is true.
MM is going to have a difficult time landing a HC gig in the future. It's bad enough when your entire tenure in GB consisted of HOF quarterback play and you only won 1 SB... but when there's information out there that you, as the HC, had a "low football IQ", well, that's gonna be tough to get past.
IMO, a very telling sign and quite frankly, a damning endorsement, was when Cleveland basically looked right past MM in their coaching search. They know exactly what he is. Most Packer fans know it now... some knew it a long f'ing time ago.
I'm with Chongo on the toof thing... how a multi-millionaire that is the face of a professional franchise doesn't do something to upgrade that grille is a bit strange.
I'll never understand why Larry McCarren doesn't do something about his goddamned finger from hell.
CHRIST MAN YOU GOT MONEY, YOU WAITING UNTIL WE ALL THROW UP AND FINALLY START YOU A GOFUNDME? GET SURGERY YOU WEIRDO.
Pakrz posted:Whether exaggerated of not, you know a large portion of what's being reported is true.
MM is going to have a difficult time landing a HC gig in the future. It's bad enough when your entire tenure in GB consisted of HOF quarterback play and you only won 1 SB... but when there's information out there that you, as the HC, had a "low football IQ", well, that's gonna be tough to get past.
IMO, a very telling sign and quite frankly, a damning endorsement, was when Cleveland basically looked right past MM in their coaching search. They know exactly what he is. Most Packer fans know it now... some knew it a long f'ing time ago.
You can couple the above with the fact that outside of Rodgers and Favre, MM has yet to show he can consistently win without a HOF QB as well.
Brett "He's been in my system for 3 years!!" Hundley to Scott Tolzzzzzeeen to Deshawn Kizer and on all were glaring examples of an offense that was barely functional. MM had no answers of how to play those QB's strengths or the strengths of the rest of his offense.
I have no doubt NFL exec's have noticed that over the years. And likely, that's a reason why he's still in the unemployment line.
Pakrz posted:Whether exaggerated of not, you know a large portion of what's being reported is true.
IMO, a very telling sign and quite frankly, a damning endorsement, was when Cleveland basically looked right past MM in their coaching search. They know exactly what he is.
Maybe one of the "unnamed sources" is employed there? Looking at you sour grapes Elliot. 
This is pretty damning on all fronts. McCarthy and Rodgers especially. But the fact Thompson had drifted, in many ways even worse than what was rumored, and was allowed to continue on for years, is just poor management by the Packer brass.
Question : If you were a FA receiver would you want to come to GB ?
MM was talking to D. Jeremiah - the entire massage thing is absurd.
What a friggin joke. They must be desperate for clicks.
James Jones just said - "Its not the same opinion I have about Aaron Rodgers"
This is effing stooopid. Like MM said to D. Jeremiah...."I've moved on from Green Bay."
Same thing I said a few posts ago.
Man o man.....silly season is truly here & everyone is bored
packerboi posted:Pakrz posted:Whether exaggerated of not, you know a large portion of what's being reported is true.
MM is going to have a difficult time landing a HC gig in the future. It's bad enough when your entire tenure in GB consisted of HOF quarterback play and you only won 1 SB... but when there's information out there that you, as the HC, had a "low football IQ", well, that's gonna be tough to get past.
IMO, a very telling sign and quite frankly, a damning endorsement, was when Cleveland basically looked right past MM in their coaching search. They know exactly what he is. Most Packer fans know it now... some knew it a long f'ing time ago.
You can couple the above with the fact that outside of Rodgers and Favre, MM has yet to show he can consistently win without a HOF QB as well.
Brett "He's been in my system for 3 years!!" Hundley to Scott Tolzzzzzeeen to Deshawn Kizer and on all were glaring examples of an offense that was barely functional. MM had no answers of how to play those QB's strengths or the strengths of the rest of his offense.
I have no doubt NFL exec's have noticed that over the years. And likely, that's a reason why he's still in the unemployment line.
Aaron Brooks think you lick rainbows
Timpranillo posted:I'll never understand why Larry McCarren doesn't do something about his goddamned finger from hell.
CHRIST MAN YOU GOT MONEY, YOU WAITING UNTIL WE ALL THROW UP AND FINALLY START YOU A GOFUNDME? GET SURGERY YOU WEIRDO.
Ladies love his digit manipulations?
Let's not go down that road.
MichiganPacker2 posted:YATittle posted:Successful groups think they can just keep doing what they do - hell it worked before. Innovation gets stifled because it's just easier to say "I'm not changing, this worked before". That leads to complacency.
We do what we do.
So how did Bo Ryan succeed for so long?
For a long time, he was considered similar to McCarthy. Could win, but never when it counted.
Boris posted:MM was talking to D. Jeremiah - the entire massage thing is absurd.
What a friggin joke. They must be desperate for clicks.
James Jones just said - "Its not the same opinion I have about Aaron Rodgers"
This is effing stooopid. Like MM said to D. Jeremiah...."I've moved on from Green Bay."
Same thing I said a few posts ago.
Man o man.....silly season is truly here & everyone is bored
#Packers coach Mike McMarthy said in a text that he didn’t even know how to respond to the claim he received massages while he was supposed to be in team meetings. “Unbelievable. I wouldn’t even know where to start. I can’t respond to that stuff.” Quick can we get Jeff Janis and Seneca Wallace on the phone to refute Mike’s rebuttal?
Tweet: “James Jones just said that Mike McCarthy gave Aaron Rodgers full control to change plays at the line AND in the huddle.” Wow so now you have a named source who was there for a significant amount of time, who doesn’t have obvious hard feelings, painting a picture that MM GAVE him the freedom to change plays. Rodgers apparently isn’t a turd that ignores his coach and MM didn’t get buffaloed by his star QB.
From @89JonesNTAF on Aaron Rodgers: "That’s not the type of guy that I know. The type of man I am is, if you have a problem with a guy and you feel like he’s not doing things the right way and he’s being selfish and he’s not being a leader, then you address him.” And Jones painting a different picture of Rodgers.
This hit piece keeps falling apart...probably because it’s based on the words of malcontents with an axe to grind.
.@89JonesNTAF said he got texts from former teammates saying the same thing he is: They never saw or heard about these issues.
This is what happens when you let Greg Jennings and Jordan Rodgers write an article for you.
Grave Digger posted:.@89JonesNTAF said he got texts from former teammates saying the same thing he is: They never saw or heard about these issues.
This is what happens when you let Greg Jennings and Jordan Rodgers write an article for you.
Don't forget Jerkmichael Finley
This was the best part:
“It was 2012, and the Packers were hosting the 49ers when, mid-timeout, cornerback Carlos Rogers playfully asked Jennings why he was running so many short routes.
"You know how it is," Jennings told him. "Contract year."
————————
So was Jennings dogging it playing it safe or was this a veiled accusation that the Packers were putting clamps on him to keep his numbers down? Good grief...
This whole story was so full of shit- its 10 min I won’t get back.
From John Kuhn: “Never knew my coach to get a massage instead of attending meetings and my QB never threw me under the bus.”
All of the Packers beat writers are coming to Dunne’s defense. Sounds like he was doing his job and probably isn’t a putz, but got a load of horseshit from sources. He was naive thinking he was blowing this story wide open when really it was just guys like Finley and Jennings using him to get their name back in the media.
The Packers and Matt LaFleur start their new season on Monday.
The best thing he can do is send a clear message of the past is the past, we're moving forward now.
New HC.
New Assistants.
New offense.
New ideas.
New mindset.
Repeat that shit over and again. It's a new beginning at 1265. That's where all the energy and focus needs to be.
Timpranillo posted:Also I'm beginning to shift my thinking more and more than if I'd point to 1 person that is most responsible for this, it's Thompson.
Thompson was in center field if you get what I mean.
This thread has enough drama. We're not going down that road.
The part about MM being the "dimmest" HC...doesn't jibe with what he was able to do with a malcontent Favre and getting that 07 team within OT of a SB. Or what he did in 14 minus the last 180 seconds. The 2011 team was overflowing with talent but he got that 2010 team, with what 18 on IR, to the final podium. I don't think it's fair and probably not even accurate to revise MM's history pre-2015. Everything that happened afterwards is pretty clear to everyone no matter what anyone says in the press.
Cant wait till Bob McGinn chimes in with all his sources. We know how much Bob loves Rodgers.
wonder if Murphy reviewed the massage game plan with mike in advance of his appointments? Did it go head to toe or strictly below the equator?
I see Greg Bedard gave his two cents regarding situation. And of course Rodgers is the most selfish player ever.
After dismissing anything Jennings and Finley say—"**** those guys"—one former coach says Rodgers has matured and dismisses the idea that he'd blow off anyone who can't match his IQ. He says Rodgers simply wants a coach "who isn't going to bullshit him" and expects Getsy, who was in Green Bay from 2014 to 2017 and spent last year at Mississippi State, to be precisely that.
And isn't last season what McCarthy and the Packers basically signed up for from the jump? To him, you can't have it both ways.
"You give a guy a green light to do whatever he wants and then criticize him for it. Which one do you want?" the coach says. "Do you want him to be creative, or do you want him to be exactly what you tell him?"
"Many agree McCarthy could have saved himself if he had swallowed his pride and hired a bright offensive mind to challenge Rodgers. One beam of hope emerged in Alex Van Pelt, who coached running backs in 2012 and 2013 before moving over to quarterbacks in 2014. However, team sources say McCarthy felt threatened by Van Pelt, who became close to Rodgers. The Packers opted not to retain Van Pelt when his contract expired after the 2017 season, which didn't sit well with Rodgers."
If I were writing an article trying to discern the issues between 12 and MM, Alex Van Pelt would be one of the first people I'd talk to. Not surprisingly he gets a paragraph that casts him in a good light . I think AVP played a big role in the conflict between 12 and MM. I'm sure he enjoyed shivving MM in this article. Not that MM didn't deserve a lot of blame for making a mess out of his coaching staff.
Green Bay is the one place in the NFL where the QB can become bigger than the franchise. It's not a coincidence it's happened twice. The focus of the entire organization and community supports a superstar QB in GB like no other city. Every other QB has to be mindful of a billionaire owner to some extent or a GM empowered by that owner. In GB those rules do not apply.
It's exacerbated by having a feckless president in Murphy. He can say all he wants about how 12 needs to be amicable to being coached, but in our hearts we all know it's a laughable proposition- Or what?!
12's contract means he can do as he damn well pleases and we're at the mercy of his whims if he feels like buying in or not. There's only 1 player in the NFL that can influence his franchise like a superstar NBA player and it's 12. He didn't have to say a word to Murphy and all the coaching hires this off-season lined up to acquiesce 12 including the hiring of Van Pelt's friend Hackett as OC.
I just hope Murphy is held to account if all his meddling over the past 18 months turns to disaster. He's been in on every hiring decision big and small from roster management to coaching personnel. He's talked with great swagger about his football and managerial acumen. To me nothing less than his job is on the line if they don't win another Super Bowl before 12 retires. No excuses or second chances to start the next era of the franchise after 12. All his chips are in.
