New HC

packerboi posted:

I don't know if Rodgers has simply tuned out everyone on MM's staff or what. 

Personally, I think AR is bored. AR is a very smart person. Smart people often want to take on new challenges, learn new things, master the next level... Managing people for 20+ years, I've always found the "not so smart" people are fine coasting along doing the same things over and over. The smartest people always want more stuff to do, more stuff to learn, more stuff to take on, more stuff to think about, etc.  

I don't believe that he's been challenged, mentally, by MM on much of anything for years.  I don't mean in the "Afraid of him and will always defer to Favre" kinda way it felt like previously. I just don't think MM has given AR or anyone on the team new things to learn, to grow into, and to master. I think he's bored. Add in a scheme that every DC knows how to play against and has 11 years of tape on, a collection of younger players that may not be ready to go to that next level, and he's... stale, bored, stagnant. 

And, yeah, I mean, shame on him, he's earning $30M and he should take pride and be better and take responsibility and, yeah he should be better.

But there's a reason you have coaches and don't simply roll the ball out and say go get em guys. And AR gives off the vibe of a a guy that wants to be challenged and given new things to master. And, frankly, he hasn't. At all. It's been same shit different day for 9+ years. 

I've been saying this for 3+ years. Stale, predictable, boring, stagnant. That has to impact the players that have been there for a while as well.

Need new blood across the organization, need new thinking at every level of the coaching staff, and yeah need a new attitude from AR otherwise, none of this matters. 

Well said. AR is not behaving like TB. With Tommy, you always see a leader and motivator. He'll work with whatever trash heap the team gives him.

So Rodgers would rather be constantly challenged by a scheme than just play within the system and win games? That seems overly convoluted and not likely. I think he just doesn’t have faith in any of his teammates except Adams, maybe Cobb, and sometimes Graham and Allison. He definitely doesn’t have faith in any defense he’s played with, often times rightfully so, but having faith in players doesn’t mean you pass up open opportunities. He’s a smart guy, maybe the smartest and most aware QB in NFL history, who gets enormous freedom from his coaches to make adjustments and change/call plays. He agrees with the playcalls, that’s why he keeps it and doesn’t change the play, so whether the call is good or bad it’s at least been decided upon by the HC and agreed upon by the QB. To me though, the problem is he sees something he likes and gets laser focused on that and kind of ignores the play around him. 

Grave Digger posted:

So Rodgers would rather be constantly challenged by a scheme than just play within the system and win games? 

That seems overly convoluted and not likely.

I agree. It is overly convoluted and not likely. Then again, no one said that. 

Blow it up?

In years past, you really didn't hear a lot of national media chiming on the need for the Packers to make major changes. That's all ending now. NBC Football Night in America called MM's offense something "out of 1997" in terms of creativity and modern scheming/play calling. 

Other national writers and outlets are piling on that the Packers need to make major changes. 

It would be hard for me to believe the "Triangle" in Gute, Murphy isn't hearing this chatter loud and clear now. It was one thing when a Bob McGinn would bitch in a local article on JSO. Now, this shit is everywhere. 

I don't think Rodgers has a problem with McVince.  I take him at his word, which makes the most sense, that the mechanics of the offense are off.  If the mechanics are off it would be logical Rodgers is out of the pocket or throwing the ball away. Whodathunk with a collection of rookies, a beat up oline and ****ing Spriggs would be out of sync.  Whodathunk Rodgers would look upset or straight faced when the offense is flopping.

Regardless if I think McVince needs to go, no single entity is at fault but he bears the responsibility.  It became clear this team was stuck after seeing last year when Rodgers wasn't part of the equation.  What I find hilarious is going after the QB that kept this team viable for years after the revelation of last year.  IMO, McVince needs to go because his management is absolute horseshit and he's out of ideas.  He was trying to run the same shit with Hundley only to figure out half way through the season that running the ball might be a better option.  4 to 5 games to adjust screams stale.

packerboi posted:

Blow it up?

In years past, you really didn't hear a lot of national media chiming on the need for the Packers to make major changes. That's all ending now. NBC Football Night in America called MM's offense something "out of 1997" in terms of creativity and modern scheming/play calling. 

Other national writers and outlets are piling on that the Packers need to make major changes. 

It would be hard for me to believe the "Triangle" in Gute, Murphy isn't hearing this chatter loud and clear now. It was one thing when a Bob McGinn would bitch in a local article on JSO. Now, this shit is everywhere. 

I don't disagree.   

"I just see, offensively, a lack of creativity," Harrison said. "As a defensive player, nobody is afraid. I wouldn't be afraid of this offense. They don't make you think, they don't make you adjust, and the only thing really exotic about their offense is Aaron Rodgers running around, scrambling and making incredible throws down the field."

I have to say I'm getting sick of the over the top narrative of some yappers that the Packers are intentionally deserting Rodgers even after a GM and DC change.  When I hear some clown yapping about how trading Dix was a betrayal to Rodgers and how Dix is the second best safety in the NFL you know this is just a bunch of clowns taking the same trope and repackaging it because it sells.  There were definite failures and the argument is valid as we all know but the added negligent/malicious intent is ****ing horseshit.  Just like cable news it comes loaded with half truths by guys that know less than the casual fan. 

lovepack posted:

Well said. AR is not behaving like TB. With Tommy, you always see a leader and motivator. He'll work with whatever trash heap the team gives him.

Hmmm, would we rather have our favorite QB function like he is above the dysfunction or like baby throwing a temper tantrum?

I don't like the comparison to Brady because he is playing for (likely) the best coach in NFL history and is essentially a robot to the system. And please, that is not a rip.

This coaching staff just needs to be blown up. It isn't much different than when TT gave Sherman another year and that didn't go very well. M3, we thank you, we wish you the best but it time for change.

'Let's Make Green Bay Great Again!'

And Brady doesn't work with a trash heap and never has.

interesting article this morning on MM and Rodgers. the writer shows how that MM has changed his offense this year and how Rodgers does not carry it out. Not sure what the disconnect is but this article makes it appear that MM is trying to adapt the offense

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/11...carthy-aaron-rodgers

Henry posted:

...over the top narrative...

https://www.acmepackingcompany...-in-ugly-2008-season

McVince in better times.  

chickenboy posted:

Henry posted:

...over the top narrative...

Big fan of Dix?  

I wish these writers and talking heads would provide some context when they're talking about "scheme" and what changes need to be made. Philly is the current model everyone wants to follow, Seattle was the model 6 years ago. What do those teams have in common? Neither one was paying their QB top dollar when they built their SB rosters. Both teams were getting top QB play without paying for it and were able to stack the rest of the roster with depth because of that. It's MUCH tougher to fill out a 53 when you're QB is taking up 15% of your salary cap. You have to take more risks with younger players and you have no margin for error with contracts, free agents, and high draft picks. Unfortunately GB has gotten burned on all 3 the last few years and the roster needs to recover. A scheme change right away isn't going to solve that, just like Pettine hasn't been able to solve all problems with the D right away...he's made progress for sure, but some major steps were also taken with the roster to facilitate his project. Same thing with the offense, a don't think a new playcaller or scheme is going to be the miracle cure. That's not to say MM should stay, but I think Gute and the work he's doing might be more critical right now than who the HC is just like it was in 2005/2006 with TT. 

Floridarob posted:

interesting article this morning on MM and Rodgers. the writer shows how that MM has changed his offense this year and how Rodgers does not carry it out. Not sure what the disconnect is but this article makes it appear that MM is trying to adapt the offense

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/11...carthy-aaron-rodgers

This is a good article. I wish someone would take it a step further and evaluate the whole season. It's easy to point out some bad plays Rodgers has made, I've done it a lot, but it's not quite fair to do that without providing some overall context of HOW MANY bad plays and HOW MANY have been his fault and how many have been scheme issues or execution issues by another member of the offense. That's a big, very comprehensive look, but if the issues Benoit points out here are prevalent then I would be surprised if MM doesn't return honestly. 

That may be the case, that Murphy after looking at the true facts decides to keep Mike.  Not that the fans should have any say but in truth they do and thy have spoken.  For mikes sake they better come out hot and heavy in the remaining home games especially this week.  A slow start and a goofed up end game and the boos will be deafening.  We keep reading that the easy part of the schedule has arrived.....there are no easy games.

Go Pack

If he is kept he's got to make some more staff changes. Moss has gotta go, other than Fackrell this year only, you can't point to a LB he's developed or that has taken the next step in their game. He's a waste of space. Not sure this QB coach has been very effective either, Rodgers fundamentals look terrible, and our "passing game coordinator" has overseen one of the roughest passing games GB has had in a long time. Zook is not overseeing any kind of discernible ST unit either, guy needs to go. 

Grave Digger posted:

Floridarob posted:

interesting article this morning on MM and Rodgers. the writer shows how that MM has changed his offense this year and how Rodgers does not carry it out. Not sure what the disconnect is but this article makes it appear that MM is trying to adapt the offense

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/11...carthy-aaron-rodgers

This is a good article. I wish someone would take it a step further and evaluate the whole season. It's easy to point out some bad plays Rodgers has made, I've done it a lot, but it's not quite fair to do that without providing some overall context of HOW MANY bad plays and HOW MANY have been his fault and how many have been scheme issues or execution issues by another member of the offense. That's a big, very comprehensive look, but if the issues Benoit points out here are prevalent then I would be surprised if MM doesn't return honestly. 

Fans are beginning to notice the same things. And to his credit, MM has not thrown Rodgers under to bus for it. Again the MM loyalty thing. So, who gets the blame? TT for poor drafts, MM and assistants for coaching, injuries at key spots, bonehead decisions by the players or Rodgers for his own decisions? 

There is plenty of blame to go around. And one fix will not be enough.

maybe this will help? https://www.acmepackingcompany...-in-ugly-2008-season

McCarthy is 55 years old, doing the same job for the last 12 years. I wish he would resign "for family reasons" and leave on a somewhat good note. I'm looking at his side of things...it could be he's getting burned out but can't admit it.  He has to put up with all the diverse personalities on the team. Then the fans, media etc. are screaming for him to be fired. Who needs that crap? He has two daughters at home - around 11 and 8. Kids grow up fast. His brother died young and no one's tomorrow is guaranteed.

i wonder how much his injury last year and this year have affected his accuracy. Aaron Rodgers does not miss the throws he has missed this year. Did the collarbone breaking affect his accuracy? How many times do we see him either throw a receiver short or overshoot him completely. The most accurate passer in the history of the game does not make those throws. Even when he throws it he looks off. Almost like he is just winging it down the field. Something is off either physically or mentally with him. That isnt McCarthys fault. 

Imagine being told that the following would have happened after the 11th game at the beginning of the season. I would bet most of us would be thinking about putting deposits down for home playoff games and thinking Super Bowl. The Packers whole is so much less than the sum of the parts.

1. The Packers would be undefeated at home.

2. The Packers would be third in the league in Rushing YPA.

3. Aaron Jones would be averaging 6 YPA with over 100 carries.

4. The Packers would have thrown the fewest interceptions in the league.

5. Aaron Rodgers would have a QB rating over 100 and a 20/1 TD to Int. ratio.

6. The defense would be 16th in the league in points allowed and 12th in the league in fewest yard allowed.

7. Davante Adams would be on pace for 112 catches, 1500 yards, and 15 TDs; Jimmy Graham for 52-707-3; and the two rookie mid-round WRs would be on pace for ~60-1000-3.

8. Fackrell would be on pace for double digit sacks. Kenny Clark would threaten 10 sacks for the year.

9. Jaire Alexander would probably make the all-rookie team at CB.

PackerPatrick posted:

Fans are beginning to notice the same things. And to his credit, MM has not thrown Rodgers under to bus for it. Again the MM loyalty thing. So, who gets the blame? TT for poor drafts, MM and assistants for coaching, injuries at key spots, bonehead decisions by the players or Rodgers for his own decisions? 

There is plenty of blame to go around. And one fix will not be enough.

I am of the thought this is still on Teds shoulders. MM has made a ton of recent mistakes but Ted ignored teh offense for years and the team is now paying the price. Other than Rodgers, Davante and and Bakh, the rest of the offense is replaceable. While Aaron Jones has been nice he is not Laveon Bell, Ezekiel Elliot or Todd Gurley. The running back does not put fear in a defense. The interior of the line is horrible. Linsley is adequate but the two guards are average at best. The WRs may work out but they have been hot and cold this year. 

The collarbone could be an issue, but he still has hit deep with great accuracy. 

I think his problem is trust and confidence. Trust and confidence in his abilities, trust and confidence in many of his teammates, and trust and confidence in the game plans.

Floridarob posted:

PackerPatrick posted:

Fans are beginning to notice the same things. And to his credit, MM has not thrown Rodgers under to bus for it. Again the MM loyalty thing. So, who gets the blame? TT for poor drafts, MM and assistants for coaching, injuries at key spots, bonehead decisions by the players or Rodgers for his own decisions? 

There is plenty of blame to go around. And one fix will not be enough.

I am of the thought this is still on Teds shoulders. MM has made a ton of recent mistakes but Ted ignored teh offense for years and the team is now paying the price. Other than Rodgers, Davante and and Bakh, the rest of the offense is replaceable. While Aaron Jones has been nice he is not Laveon Bell, Ezekiel Elliot or Todd Gurley. The running back does not put fear in a defense. The interior of the line is horrible. Linsley is adequate but the two guards are average at best. The WRs may work out but they have been hot and cold this year. 

I agree with you. I am not totally letting MM off the hook but  I am still firmly in the camp that TT and his drafting/philosophy has hurt this team tremendously. 

 If you look at the offense they have zero playmakes after Adams and AR.  You are right Jones is a good back but I don't think he scares other teams either.  

So the question to me will be if the GM knows this and needs to build the roster or if he believes it it time to reboot things and make the change at HC.   Time will tell and I truly believe how they play this week is going to go a long way for Gute to make his decision.

I wonder if MM has said "I'd bench his a$$, but it's Aaron Rodgers" circa Jan 2008...

The fact that the roster needs upgrading and a new voice is needed in the locker room aren't mutually exclusive. Everything I've seen continues to point to MM's shelf life in GB being expired and the time is right for a change. Andy Reid wasn't dismissed because he forgot how to coach and the same is true of MM.

We do what we do.

Which isn't any good anymore. 

Hindsight is 20/20, but Philly did NOT make the right choice firing Andy Reid. History will be kind to Mickey Loomis and the Saints ownership for sticking with their guys when it would have been easy to panic and blow up the operation. Reid was fired because he made a poor choice in his starting QB in 2010. He put all his eggs in the Kevin Kolb basket and then fell back on Michael Vick who was not a starting QB at that point. I think he got cocky that he could turn Kolb into the guy and he could squeeze some remaining quality play out of Vick. Poor gambles that didn't work, but that's not to say Reid didn't deserve the chance to right the ship. Certainly sticking with Payton through lean years paid off for NO.

Grave Digger posted:

Philly is the current model everyone wants to follow, Seattle was the model 6 years ago. What do those teams have in common? Neither one was paying their QB top dollar when they built their SB rosters. Both teams were getting top QB play without paying for it and were able to stack the rest of the roster with depth because of that. It's MUCH tougher to fill out a 53 when you're QB is taking up 15% of your salary cap. 

I mean, this has been the model for a while.  Have a QB still on a rookie deal get hot and stack the defense.  It worked for Seattle until Wilson got paid.  It's currently working for the Rams, KC, and even the Bears.  Defense still wins championships and it's hard to get a defense if you're pouring all your cash into the QB.

Grave Digger posted:

Hindsight is 20/20, but Philly did NOT make the right choice firing Andy Reid. History will be kind to Mickey Loomis and the Saints ownership for sticking with their guys when it would have been easy to panic and blow up the operation. Reid was fired because he made a poor choice in his starting QB in 2010. He put all his eggs in the Kevin Kolb basket and then fell back on Michael Vick who was not a starting QB at that point. I think he got cocky that he could turn Kolb into the guy and he could squeeze some remaining quality play out of Vick. Poor gambles that didn't work, but that's not to say Reid didn't deserve the chance to right the ship. Certainly sticking with Payton through lean years paid off for NO.

I think Philly would say after winning a SB, they made the right decision.  Pederson seems like a good coach.  Having said that, I think they should stay the course for one more year with MM.    

Saints are paying Brees $25 million/year. Packers statistically have a better defense than the Saints. Gute threw a draft ransom at Oakland for Mack knowing full well Mack would cost him $22 million/year. Reggie mistakenly decided Chicago would result in better draft spots. Saints are 10-1. Packers are 4-6-1. 

The argument you can't build a defense if you are paying a QB top $$$ is not accurate. You can. 

Not keeping Casey Hayward started a bad domino effect that led to Randall and Rollins and then King which is probably leading to another pick for another corner. That is a lot of draft equity to get back to square 1. Get's worse when you consider GB currently has nobody on the roster with meaningful experience at safety.  It's stunning that Pettine really is making chicken salad with chicken shit. This defense, as is today, with a real life functional safety (Free Agency) and a pass rusher (1st round pick) is good enough to win a lot of games in 2019 if the offense get's its shit together. GB is currently ranked 12th in total defense. And I have no idea how given the injuries and complete lack of safeties. 

Time for Mike to go. This offense has been the same sloppy mess for years. It would be a monumental mistake to think Mike and Aaron can figure things out with one more year together. 

Heard on the innerwebs:

The #Packers are now 0-37 when trailing in the 4th Quarter to teams with a winning record. #BillMichealsShow #1057theFan

Jeebus. 

I wonder how far back that goes.  2011?

Take away that seriously fluke game against Tampa in week 1 and NO defense has only allowed 19 ppg. GB is allowing 24 ppg and it's even worse if you don't count the goose egg vs. one of the worst offenses in NFL history (Buffalo). 

I'm not saying you can't build a top defense while paying a QB, it's been done many times (Pittsburgh, NE, Baltimore), but the margin for error is much thinner. You can have Rodgers AND Mack, but you damn sure better nail draft picks and get a lot out of players on rookie contracts.

What's Winston Moss doing?

Brainwashed Boris posted:

What's Winston Moss doing?

Committing theft. Like Zook. And before that, Slocum. And before that, Darren Perry. 

We do what we do. 

Poor judgement with staff has been MM's biggest issue. Beyond the Capers discussion, he just hasn't been able to replace the good assistants that have left. Bringing in or promoting schlubs like Van Pelt, Fontenot, McCurley, Moss, etc. has really hampered player development.

The articles, especially the one saying that MM is trying more and different things than he ever has, is especially damning. If he's trying newer things to get guys open, and guys are open and Rodgers is just not taking what's given, then that's on Rodgers. Perhaps he doesn't want to throw the ball short on timing routes because there's a greater chance of something bad happening: a tipped ball by a lineman, a hard throw bounces off a receiver's hands, a wrong depth or misstep by the WR, or the QB just doesn't see a LB knife in front of the receiver. All of those things are more likely to happen closer to the LOS and the result is an interception -- which we all know he hates.

Instead, Rodgers throws the medium- to long-ball because it's a safer throw. It's pretty rare, in fact almost unseen this year, that Rodgers puts up any kind of throw that could be contested, even down the field, where he lets his receiver fight for it or body up on a DB. He puts it where only his guy can absolutely safely get it. This year he has thrown OOB or purposely over the head or into the ground more than ever (his completion percentage has dropped by a lot). Witness the pass he tried to throw on fourth down that went into the ground two weeks ago. I don't think it stuck in his hand; he wanted to bring that ball back because he just didn't have confidence in the throw/placement.

I don't think you can point to any one thing and say, "This is the problem," but the combination of Rodgers' poor play, getting Zooked every week, and MM's stubbornness with coaches, etc., has resulted in a broken team and wasted year.

He's got the yips.....

Pikes Peak posted:

He's got the yips.....

That's as good an explanation as any. He reminds me of Chuck Knoblauch of the Twins who one day just couldn't throw from his spot on second base to first base; 26 errors in one season. Just something has got into Rodgers' head, and I think he is thinking so much about setting an interception record and is so afraid of throwing an interception, that if a defender is less than 5 yards away he doesn't want to risk it. I think he wants to end the year with one interception -- in 16 games, the fewest interceptions thrown by anyone is 4 by Brady, Prescott, and DeBerg. Rodgers had 5 in 2014.