As far as TB goes we also have to recognize where you are drafting. They have 4 players on their roster that they were able to draft in the top 15, we have one (Gary).
@Ghost of Lambeau posted:No he meant Trent Dilfer. Dilfer was drafted by Tampa Bay (#6 overall) and he was with them for 6 seasons. Of the 5 seasons he was the starter, he had a winning record in 2 of those seasons. In March of 2000 he signed with the Ravens as a backup to Tony Banks. After some games he supplanted Banks as the starter and went 7-1 - the team went 12-4 on the season. Remember that the Ravens had a suffocating defense that season. Dilfer did not have to be great, just be consistent and don't turn the ball over - things he did well that season. They beat the Giants in the SB. So yes, Dilfer has a SB ring.
After the 2000 season the Ravens thought they could do better than Dilfer and got Elvis Grbac from SF - a guy that would be more of a play maker - or so they thought. That did not go so well the following season. Dilfer was with the Ravens for a total of 1 season.
Maybe I should have added the little sarcasm picture. I know Dilfer won one but so did the immortal Brad Johnson.
@Packy posted:Let’s remember that Trent Dilfer has a Super Bowl ring.
Though people seem to gloss over the fact Dilfer had a not just good, not just great, but historically noted defense with a great O-line and Priest Holmes was the backup RB behind Jamal Lewis. Is it easier to find 20-ish great players, or a couple?
Let's face it, the only sure starter other than Rodgers on that team is Adams.
Dilfer, while not a HoFer by any stretch, was a lot better than people give him credit for. Tony Banks was QB1 for a long stretch with that squad, and couldn't do jack shit. In the pantheon of "winning Super Bowl QB," Dilfer is ahead of guys like Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson and Doug Williams.
He was probably the last "game manager" to win a Super Bowl, and that was 20 years ago. The game has changed a lot.
Dilfer signed a 1 year, $1M contract with the Ravens that year. He accounted for 1.4% of their cap space, for reference Jordan Love counts 5% this year and Tim Boyle counted .37% last year. Pretty great value for what Dilfer accomplished.
@Grave Digger posted:I think Murphy, being a defensive player from the previous NFL era, probably doesn’t have much respect for diva QBs. JMO, but I think because they weathered the Favre saga pretty well, all things considered, that he feels confident that he can use the same playbook and the same will happen here. Rodgers is a different animal.
I think the Favre antics, we experienced, helped set up what we are now seeing with Rodgers. I too, want to see this drama end so we can get on with the football season! GO PACK, GO!!!
@Grave Digger posted:Dilfer signed a 1 year, $1M contract with the Ravens that year. He accounted for 1.4% of their cap space, for reference Jordan Love counts 5% this year and Tim Boyle counted .37% last year. Pretty great value for what Dilfer accomplished.
Not fucking up? That was pretty much the requirement for Dilfer. Play it safe in the passing game, hand off the ball and let the run game and defense do its job.
He threw for all of 1500 yards that season with an average of 6.7 yards per throw.
@Chongo posted:In the pantheon of "winning Super Bowl QB," Dilfer is ahead of guys like Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson and Doug Williams.
Not seeing that at all. Flacco played friggin' lights out his Super Bowl appearance and actually passed the ball on a regular occasion. Brad Johnson was a pure passer. He was a joy to watch him "scramble". I think he would've preferred to wear the red jersey all season long. Rypien, Hostetler and Williams played in a different era where the requirement for QB was to be able to play within the 3 yards and cloud of dust philosophy. That doesn't diminish what they did but it sure confirms that a bruising running game and strong defense are absolutely essential in their day and their toughness needed to match it.
Doug Williams was also much better than Dilfer. Come on.
Here's your stats.
Aaron Rodgers Has Never Had Much Help From the Defense or Special Teams
@Henry posted:One wanted back in. The other wants out.
Revisionist history..Favre wanted back so bad he wanted to stick it to Ted and the Packers he signed with the Vikings as soon as he could, right after “retiring” again from the Jets.
@SteveLuke posted:Only the few remaining reflexive Packer front office genuflectors continue to pretend that the New England Patriots built their rosters under Belichik just like good old Ted did during his 13 years in Green Bay (shunning free agency and player trades).
While the record clearly reflects that the Patriots made more trades of and for players during Ted's run than any other NFL franchise (big ones like Moss and many, many smaller ones to plug holes), less well known is that the team that wears Green and Gold made the fewest.
As for free agency, NE signed big timers like Revis and Gilmore and every year a slew of near-the-end vets who were chasing a Lombardi, while ol' Murph was content to let Ted ignore free agency year after year after year ... until he apparently finally spoke to the man and realized he was no longer medically incompetent.
Belichik went on record to specifically state that the Pats went all in to compete for SBs during Brady's final seasons, while in GB the very notion of not always planning for the future is considered sacrelige and all in the Devil's work.
As for Tampa Bay, they won the SB last year not because they went all draft and develop on the bit ... but because they supplemented their roster by signing free agents like Tom Brady and Leonard Fournette and Antonio Brown and Ryan Jensen and Ndamukong Suh and Shaq Barrett and traded for Gronk and JPP.
Gute has indeed disavowed the unnecessarily rigid (and ultimately ineffective) approach to roster building that he so loyally supported while his predecessor was in charge. Hope the new approach pays off if and when Love turns into the next great Green Bay QB so we can enjoy another, single SB win with our 3rd straight HOFer behind center.
NE SB participating seasons/% of starting 22 drafted/UDFA by NE:
2018: 75%, 2017: 75%, 2016: 80%, 2014: 75%, 2011: 85%, 2007: 70%, 2004: 75%, 2003: 70%, 2001: 70%
Just because he acquired players like Gilmore, Revis, Moss, Dillon, etc. over the years doesn't mean he didn't rely on his draft/development program at any point. He does exactly what I said GB failed to do, which is admit your mistakes in drafting (i.e. free agency/trades).
Tampa added some key pieces on the DL as well as Brady and Gronk, but the dominant core of their team was all draftees...1/4 of the DL (Vea), their starting 5 DBs, their starting 2 LBs, 4/5 of their dominant OL, the 3/4 of their starting WR, their starting RB. They would have won the SB without AB and Fournette, those guys were just gravy. They drafted a loaded team and then supplemented where they hadn't drafted well.
Just because facts don't align with the idea that the GB front office is a collective group of the most incompetent people in the NFL (and has been for a decade) doesn't mean it's true and throwing those facts out doesn't mean I'm making excuses for them. Every front office makes mistakes, winning a SB is hard, NE is an outlier not the rule. If people want to be constantly negative about the outlook of the GBP or dwell on past mistakes then I suggest you become a bandwagon fan for a front running team.
@Steve of Norway posted:Revisionist history..Favre wanted back so bad he wanted to stick it to Ted and the Packers he signed with the Vikings as soon as he could, right after “retiring” again from the Jets.
Yes, that's what retiring and unretiring is. That's why McVince and TT went to Mississippi to see if he wanted to play again and he jerked them around by saying no then yes.
When McVince pulled the trigger on Rodgers then Favre was traded to the Jets. See, by wanting to play again means he wanted back in. Do you honestly think he unretired just to go to the Jets? Favre's vengeance tour came after McVince made the call.
Though Favre had waffled for multiple seasons between retirement and continuing his career, it was stunning that the club had elected to move on. He met with coach Mike McCarthy after he made the decision in early August to return to football, and despite long discussions, it did not appear they could continue working together. The team was simply ready to give the keys to Rodgers.
"All I can say is I’ve always wanted to be a Packer; I think I always will be a Packer," Favre said the day after the trade. "I’m not a traitor. Never will be. It’s business; that’s the way it works."
Revisionist history my ass.
@Grave Digger posted:NE SB participating seasons/% of starting 22 drafted/UDFA by NE:
2018: 75%, 2017: 75%, 2016: 80%, 2014: 75%, 2011: 85%, 2007: 70%, 2004: 75%, 2003: 70%, 2001: 70%
Just because he acquired players like Gilmore, Revis, Moss, Dillon, etc. over the years doesn't mean he didn't rely on his draft/development program at any point. He does exactly what I said GB failed to do, which is admit your mistakes in drafting (i.e. free agency/trades).
Tampa added some key pieces on the DL as well as Brady and Gronk, but the dominant core of their team was all draftees...1/4 of the DL (Vea), their starting 5 DBs, their starting 2 LBs, 4/5 of their dominant OL, the 3/4 of their starting WR, their starting RB. They would have won the SB without AB and Fournette, those guys were just gravy. They drafted a loaded team and then supplemented where they hadn't drafted well.
Just because facts don't align with the idea that the GB front office is a collective group of the most incompetent people in the NFL (and has been for a decade) doesn't mean it's true and throwing those facts out doesn't mean I'm making excuses for them. Every front office makes mistakes, winning a SB is hard, NE is an outlier not the rule. If people want to be constantly negative about the outlook of the GBP or dwell on past mistakes then I suggest you become a bandwagon fan for a front running team.
LOL, New England didn't win all those Super Bowls because Bill Belichik is good at drafting and developing.
https://www.patriotshalloffame.com/a-belichick-draft/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MTzh1unrEY
Heck, by any measure, Green Bay's drafting was far, far superior to New England's over the past 15 years. That used to be such a source of pride for the Front Office loyalists.
And no one ever claimed that the Pack's Front Office was "the most incompetent," that is just a little red herring someone butthurt over any criticism of their beloved men upstairs would throw out.
I mean we've celebrated having better records than the Lions, Bears, and Vikings most every year since 1992 like Packer fans used to celebrate championships in the Lombardi years, so the FO can't be the "most incompetent."
As for Tampa Bay, only a Packer FO loyalist steeped in the draft and develop at all costs dogma of Ted Thompson could look at the Bucs all-in 2020 offseason (including the FA signing of the GOAT at QB) and conclude, yeah that's just how they do things in Green Bay donchya know.
Now, you are certainly correct that winning a SB is hard, but you know what else is hard?
Getting to just 1 SB this century (21 seasons) with HOF QBs behind center for every one of those seasons (including 3 of the past 10 in which the QB has won the MVP). 7 NFC teams have been to more SBs this century and 4 have been to just as many.
By any objective measure, that is a poor record ... and no matter how tenaciously the ardent genuflectors work to deflect criticism away from the men principally responsible for that failure, there will still be Packer fans (not Packer GM fans or Packer Team President fans mind you but Packer fans) willing to point out the facts that make the ducky and bunny crowd so uncomfortable.
Now, I'll step away and let the real Packer fans discuss how all those player trades the Packers never made over the past 15 years prove that the Front Office that goes to work at 1265 Lombardi is the bestest in the business.
@Henry posted:Yes, that's what retiring and unretiring is. That's why McVince and TT went to Mississippi to see if he wanted to play again and he jerked them around by saying no then yes.
When McVince pulled the trigger on Rodgers then Favre was traded to the Jets. See, by wanting to play again means he wanted back in. Do you honestly think he unretired just to go to the Jets? Favre's vengeance tour came after McVince made the call.
Though Favre had waffled for multiple seasons between retirement and continuing his career, it was stunning that the club had elected to move on. He met with coach Mike McCarthy after he made the decision in early August to return to football, and despite long discussions, it did not appear they could continue working together. The team was simply ready to give the keys to Rodgers.
"All I can say is I’ve always wanted to be a Packer; I think I always will be a Packer," Favre said the day after the trade. "I’m not a traitor. Never will be. It’s business; that’s the way it works."
Revisionist history my ass.
Oh yeah totally..he jerked the team around for about 10 years and he wanted to stay..so clear cut there..
It is possible to respond without insulting someone.
What were you saying about revisionist history?
Your blathering doesn't even qualify as revisionist history. This is "I keep getting shelled and now I'm a sad" history.
I guess JSonline is full of shit too right?
We're getting carried away.
Two conference title games were lost due to defensive meltdowns. Two of them the defense played well enough to get the W. For such a historically awful unit, they were able to play way over their heads with a SB on the line. Eight turnovers in those two games wasn't enough. In two years under MLF, the defense preserved a number of leads on final drives, after they were put back on the field by an offense that couldn't clinch the victory.
"We've got a defense!"
"We need to make teams come to Lambeau and play us here."
@SteveLuke posted:LOL, New England didn't win all those Super Bowls because Bill Belichik is good at drafting and developing.
https://www.patriotshalloffame.com/a-belichick-draft/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MTzh1unrEY
Heck, by any measure, Green Bay's drafting was far, far superior to New England's over the past 15 years. That used to be such a source of pride for the Front Office loyalists.
And no one ever claimed that the Pack's Front Office was "the most incompetent," that is just a little red herring someone butthurt over any criticism of their beloved men upstairs would throw out.
I mean we've celebrated having better records than the Lions, Bears, and Vikings most every year since 1992 like Packer fans used to celebrate championships in the Lombardi years, so the FO can't be the "most incompetent."
As for Tampa Bay, only a Packer FO loyalist steeped in the draft and develop at all costs dogma of Ted Thompson could look at the Bucs all-in 2020 offseason (including the FA signing of the GOAT at QB) and conclude, yeah that's just how they do things in Green Bay donchya know.
Now, you are certainly correct that winning a SB is hard, but you know what else is hard?
Getting to just 1 SB this century (21 seasons) with HOF QBs behind center for every one of those seasons (including 3 of the past 10 in which the QB has won the MVP). 7 NFC teams have been to more SBs this century and 4 have been to just as many.
By any objective measure, that is a poor record ... and no matter how tenaciously the ardent genuflectors work to deflect criticism away from the men principally responsible for that failure, there will still be Packer fans (not Packer GM fans or Packer Team President fans mind you but Packer fans) willing to point out the facts that make the ducky and bunny crowd so uncomfortable.
Now, I'll step away and let the real Packer fans discuss how all those player trades the Packers never made over the past 15 years prove that the Front Office that goes to work at 1265 Lombardi is the bestest in the business.
Spoiled rotten. Easily the most entitled response to 30 years of consistent winning, multiple championships, and HOF players I've ever seen. You could have saved so much time and just said, "all that success is great, but it's not good enough." I don't think GB's FO is the best in the business, I think you are what your record says you are though and GB has been elite. I think the difference, what seems to twist your undies in a double knot, is that I enjoy football and you seem to only enjoy bragging about records and championships. We've had 30 years of quality football that is fun every week to watch save for maybe half a dozen seasons of frustrating performance.
@artis posted:Two conference title games were lost due to defensive meltdowns. Two of them the defense played well enough to get the W. For such a historically awful unit, they were able to play way over their heads with a SB on the line. Eight turnovers in those two games wasn't enough. In two years under MLF, the defense preserved a number of leads on final drives, after they were put back on the field by an offense that couldn't clinch the victory.
"We've got a defense!"
"We need to make teams come to Lambeau and play us here."
A defense playing "way over their heads" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. A playoff caliber defense probably would've gotten them to the Super Bowl even with the mistakes on offense because that's what playoff caliber defenses do. Offenses also make mistakes against playoff caliber defenses as exhibited in the last NFCC game.
https://www.si.com/college/cal...ers-from-mike-florio
Rodgers might want 2 years $90 Million guaranteed.
Thoughts while driving, on Aaron/Packers: pic.twitter.com/oP2ztEuoW4
— Andrew Brandt (@AndrewBrandt) July 25, 2021
What does Brandt know?! Shut up and fuck your hair (wish I could have a man bun) Brandt.
Encouraging...much higher than the NBA...
NFL player vaccination update:
— Tom Pelissero (@TomPelissero) July 26, 2021
83.6% of players vaccinated overall (at least one shot)
10 clubs now have 90% or more of their players vaccinated
@Grave Digger posted:Spoiled rotten. Easily the most entitled response to 30 years of consistent winning, multiple championships, and HOF players I've ever seen. You could have saved so much time and just said, "all that success is great, but it's not good enough." I don't think GB's FO is the best in the business, I think you are what your record says you are though and GB has been elite. I think the difference, what seems to twist your undies in a double knot, is that I enjoy football and you seem to only enjoy bragging about records and championships. We've had 30 years of quality football that is fun every week to watch save for maybe half a dozen seasons of frustrating performance.
Man, that sounds like a Vikings fan.
Watching great football is fun but ultimately it is about the championships. Personally, my fear isn't that they don't win a Super Bowl, it's that those dopes run the team into the ground. Then we can all be excited about getting a wild card every few years and getting beat in the first round.
I don't know how fans look at the Rizzi situation and just not be blown away by sheer failure of the situation. Packers ST have SUCKED for years on end. You have the top ST coach wanting to sign on and you fucking lowball him.
For all of Rodgers greatness and the solid football on offense it's a kick in the fucking head having to watch an entire unit of the Packers be absolute garbage when you had a solution right in front of you. TT had a solution drop right into his lap and he took it and he was right. Not this FO. Show 'em what a tough negotiator you are Ball Fondler so we can revel in another shit ST unit hamstringing all the great football on the offense.
I backed TT endlessly for years but when it all the shit and stagnation came to light it's pretty hard to just whistle past the graveyard.
When Gunt was hired and started making FA moves it was exciting then it just stalled. Then all this drama happened. One incredibly stupid, very manageable situation created by the FO literally ends up wiping out all those moves.
@Grave Digger posted:Spoiled rotten. Easily the most entitled response to 30 years of consistent winning, multiple championships, and HOF players I've ever seen. You could have saved so much time and just said, "all that success is great, but it's not good enough." I don't think GB's FO is the best in the business, I think you are what your record says you are though and GB has been elite. I think the difference, what seems to twist your undies in a double knot, is that I enjoy football and you seem to only enjoy bragging about records and championships. We've had 30 years of quality football that is fun every week to watch save for maybe half a dozen seasons of frustrating performance.
No, GREEN BAY has not been elite over the past 30 years.
Did Ron Wolf and Mike Holmgren have elite careers (including outside of GB), yes they did. And certainly Bob Harlan rescuing a moribund, backwardsass franchise was some elite President work.
But as Wolf correctly noted, their time in GB was just a fart in the wind.
Favre and Rodgers with 6 MVPs between them were certainly elite, as were Reggie and Woodson (who did much of their work in Philly and Oakland, respectively).
But was the Packers' organization elite when it came to Super Bowls during the Favre-Rodger's era? Hardly.
Denver and Dallas (yes Dallas) won more SBs during that same period of time and Denver appeared in more SBs. Pittsburgh won as many and played in more SBs. The Giants have played in as many SBs and won as many as GB. The Seahawks, 49ers, and Rams have played in as many SBs. Baltimore and Tampa Bay have won as many SBs. KC has been to the past 2 SBs and has the best young QB in the game, think they don't get to another SB in the next 28 seasons? Me either.
And I don't dare mention the only true elite franchise over the past 30 years, because that just sends the front office loyalists into a tizzy .
It could be argued that Ted Thompson did some elite drafting during the first-half of his tenure, or, alternatively, that he was an elite drafter on the offensive side of the ball for most of his career (while inexplicably whiffing badly over and over again on the defensive side of the ball where he expended all of his 1st round picks during the second-half of his tenure). But his refusal to engage in free agency or make trades (like Wolf did) disqualify him from consideration as an elite GM. (Thanks Schneider for convincing Ted to sign Wood!)
Mike McCarthy? Is there anyone out there who still pretends this guy was an elite coach during his 13-year run in GB? I mean, just look at the stellar staffs he put together every year.
And Murph? Elite? Um, well, not the first (or 396,000th) word that comes to mind when most folks think of the Pack's long-time President.
In the end, the story of the Pack's last 30 years is that they rode 2 HOF QBs to 2 Fart In The Wind SB victories and will be known around the rest of the NFL (not in the hearts of the G&G loyalists of course) as having accomplished far less than they ought to have accomplished.
Now, I promise to vacate the field and allow those, like yourself, who are more comfortable with the type of undying devotion to the front office and coaching staff that would make Dan Devine, Lindy Infante, and Tom Braatz blush carry on.
@artis posted:Two of them the defense played well enough to get the W.
Need to capitalize on turnovers with a trip to the SB on the line. Team failed to do that at Seattle and against the Bucs.
Not that I'm trying to trigger Hank...
GM Brian Gutekunst to the Packers’ shareholders: “We have been working tirelessly with Aaron and his representatives to resolve the issues [Rodgers has raised], and we are hopeful for a positive resolution.” pic.twitter.com/ckpIrw5dta
— Rob Demovsky (@RobDemovsky) July 26, 2021
Glad to see Hank could make it to the meeting...
@SteveLuke posted:Now, I promise to vacate the field and allow those, like yourself, who are more comfortable with the type of undying devotion to the front office and coaching staff that would make Dan Devine, Lindy Infante, and Tom Braatz blush carry on.
Everyone is a martyr that's the internet for you I guess. I don't give a shit who or what you're a fan of when it comes to the Packers, if you feel oppressed by me responding to your opinion on a message board then maybe a blog where you can vent for your feelings is more appropriate...make sure to turn comments off though. If anyone wants to have a regular venting blog on the home page, I do believe there is a X4 function function for that and you're welcome to it. If you need blogging tips, my good friend Al Bethke can help guide you.
Interesting that Gutekunst said they've been talking with "Rodgers and his representatives" to resolve his issue with the club. You usually talk to reps about money, so you can imagine that contract numbers are still part of the equation. He was careful not to be pessimistic. pic.twitter.com/U78wOzZn5j
— Tom Silverstein (@TomSilverstein) July 26, 2021
@Henry posted:A defense playing "way over their heads" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. A playoff caliber defense probably would've gotten them to the Super Bowl even with the mistakes on offense because that's what playoff caliber defenses do. Offenses also make mistakes against playoff caliber defenses as exhibited in the last NFCC game.
"Way over their heads" is simply to fit the parameter your link established. Those two games equal two potential SB berths that the argument against the defense doesn't hold water. The Seattle game, moreso, but it applies this past year as well. The vaunted offense stalled and settled for 3's while being gifted turnovers in a hostile environment. Against TB, they created turnovers late in the game to keep within striking distance with chances to tie. At what point do we expect a reigning MVP to cash in on such opportunities? He's been the hero too many times to count, yet in these two situations with the SB on the line, should we not expect him to rise to the occasion? A decade of subpar defense provided eight extra chances in two title games. One trip to a SB falls more on a FO than it does the all world QB who had two more chances right in front of his face?
I’m pretty sure all but maybe a few teams would gladly have traded places with the Packers the last 30 years.
Would or should the Packers have won or at least played in the SB more than 3 times over that span? Surely. Think 1995, 2007, 2014 and 2020 specifically. But they did win 2 and played in 3.
So yes, the Packers and we as fans have been spoiled. How quickly we forget the 70s and 80s and early 90s prior to Harlan and Wolf and Holmgren.
@Tschmack posted:I’m pretty sure all but maybe a few teams would gladly have traded places with the Packers the last 30 years.
Would or should the Packers have won or at least played in the SB more than 3 times over that span? Surely. Think 1995, 2007, 2014 and 2020 specifically. But they did win 2 and played in 3.
So yes, the Packers and we as fans have been spoiled. How quickly we forget the 70s and 80s and early 90s prior to Harlan and Wolf and Holmgren.
The Minnesota Vikings have appeared in 4 Super Bowls. The last one being 44 YEARS AGO!! Think those fans aren't jealous? It warms the cockles of my heart but no wonder they're a bunch of miserable bastards! 
@Chongo posted:Interesting that Gutekunst said they've been talking with "Rodgers and his representatives" to resolve his issue with the club. You usually talk to reps about money, so you can imagine that contract numbers are still part of the equation. He was careful not to be pessimistic. pic.twitter.com/U78wOzZn5j
— Tom Silverstein (@TomSilverstein) July 26, 2021
Interesting he said resolve and not address.
I'm waiting for PackerHawk's meeting report.
Anyone else from X4 there?
"Careful not to be pessimistic'