I'm so getting this made
While Rodney is I believe over simplifying things, he's not wrong either:
Many fans don’t want to trade Aaron Rodgers because they’re deathly afraid of the Packers becoming one of those sad-sack franchises that can’t find a quarterback for decades. Hell, the Packers were one of those sad-sack franchises from the time Bart Starr retired in 1970 until Brett Favre arrived via a trade with the Falcons in 1992. But in reality, finding a signal-caller isn’t really that difficult. The key is simply having a smart general manager who knows what he’s doing.
The Packers didn’t go two decades without a quarterback because of a lack of opportunities. They went two decades without a quarterback because their decision-makers during that time were incompetent. While serving as both coach and GM, Starr overruled his top scout and chose running back Steve Atkins and nose tackle Charles Johnson over Joe Montana in 1979. A few years later, he thought Rich Campbell was better than Neil Lomax, who played in multiple Pro Bowls for the Cardinals. And just months before being fired in December 1983, he passed on both Jim Kelly and Dan Marino. Things got no better under Forrest Gregg, who failed to draft a quarterback prior to the third round even though his starters from 1984 through 1987 were a broken down Lynn Dickey, Randy Wright, Jim Zorn, and Don Majkowski.
@packerboi posted:While serving as both coach and GM, Starr overruled his top scout and chose running back Steve Atkins and nose tackle Charles Johnson over Joe Montana in 1979.
This is wrong. According to the book America's Quarterback by Starr he wanted to draft Montana in the 2nd round but he deferrred to the scouts and D coaches who convinced him to draft Johnson because they needed defensive players more.
Christl says Rodney's version is the truth...who really knows?
@ammo posted:This is wrong. According to the book America's Quarterback by Starr he wanted to draft Montana in the 2nd round but he deferrred to the scouts and D coaches who convinced him to draft Johnson because they needed defensive players more.
You know, I read this and thought "why the hell have I never heard this before?!"
God Bless Bart, but if he passed on Montana, I do not believe he would have ever heard the end of that.
@Chongo posted:Christl says Rodney's version is the truth...who really knows?
Oy. When homerism gets in the way of winning.
@RochNyFan posted:That's why I said since 2011. Outside of WRs, this roster was not that far behind.
Not even close. That defense was stupid good.
@packerboi posted:While Rodney is I believe over simplifying things, he's not wrong either:
Many fans don’t want to trade Aaron Rodgers because they’re deathly afraid of the Packers becoming one of those sad-sack franchises that can’t find a quarterback for decades. Hell, the Packers were one of those sad-sack franchises from the time Bart Starr retired in 1970 until Brett Favre arrived via a trade with the Falcons in 1992. But in reality, finding a signal-caller isn’t really that difficult. The key is simply having a smart general manager who knows what he’s doing.
The Packers didn’t go two decades without a quarterback because of a lack of opportunities. They went two decades without a quarterback because their decision-makers during that time were incompetent. While serving as both coach and GM, Starr overruled his top scout and chose running back Steve Atkins and nose tackle Charles Johnson over Joe Montana in 1979. A few years later, he thought Rich Campbell was better than Neil Lomax, who played in multiple Pro Bowls for the Cardinals. And just months before being fired in December 1983, he passed on both Jim Kelly and Dan Marino. Things got no better under Forrest Gregg, who failed to draft a quarterback prior to the third round even though his starters from 1984 through 1987 were a broken down Lynn Dickey, Randy Wright, Jim Zorn, and Don Majkowski.
That is an over simplification. If it was so easy guys like Dak Prescott wouldn't be getting the contracts they have. QB wouldn't be the highest paid position by a large margin.
You can pretty much go with the "no shit Sherlock" statement when it comes to having a good GM. What makes GMs look good? Good QBs and a good team around the QB. TT picked Rodgers, I have no clue what this current FO is capable of when it comes to QBs.
From the book America's Quarterback, Bart Starr and the rise of the NFL by Keith Dunnavant. Page 275. Look it up:
Reassured by an intense workout by Zeke Bratkowski convincing him Montana's arm was strong enough Starr decided to draft the former Notre Dame star.
As both head coach and general manager the choice was his. He was attracked to the QBs unmistakeable leadership qualities.
The Packers remained a team with many glaring needs, especially on defense. The defensive coaches pushed him to by pass Montana and draft Johnson. Starr deferred to their experience. In later years Starr conceded it was one of his worst blunders as coach and GM. "There is no doubt I blew it. There is no doubt I made a terrible mistake" said Starr in later years.
So there you have it, straight from the man himself.
@RochNyFan posted:That's why I said since 2011. Outside of WRs, this roster was not that far behind.
I don't want to downplay the idea. If I'm honest, there is a big part of me that wants to blow it up and be done with Rodgers. If they traded Rodgers, I would be completely okay with that.
With that said, the smart money is sticking with Rodgers and slapping some more Bondo on that sucker. They aren't that far away but the holes they do have are pretty significant but fixable. Is it easier to try and complete the team enough to get over the top with Rodgers or hope everything pans out in 5 years after a rebuild? I have no problem with a rebuild but again, the smart money is working with Rodgers.
Rodgers can still play at a high level but the Packers organization needs to quit relying on him alone. Recognize he's getting older despite the MVPs and build some better backstops, meaning defense and not being so fucking stupid about ST.
And I think Rodgers needs to quit relying on one reciever and throw to the guys who are open, even if they did drop a pass earlier in the game. It's not about Rodgers stats so he can win MVPs, it's about moving the ball towards the goalline.
Giving guys another chance can't always hurt.
Let’s remember that from the divisional round on, all the games came down to one or two plays. Nobody dominated anyone else. It was basically a coin flip to win a SB (sometimes literally).
Plenty of teams made terrible mistakes on evaluating QBs. Not just Montana. Brady didn’t have great arm strength either. Wilson and Brees were too short. It’s easy to go back and play the what if game there.
No different than 1988 when the Packers won their final 2 games. Even so, it’s the only draft I can recall (1989) when 4 of the top 5 picks became HOF players other than the guy we drafted at 2 (Mandarich).
The single most egregious error in Packers draft history was passing on T J W. Why you say? Because unlike those other hypotheticals he was sitting there to select!
Look at who they had to pay in FA or in draft capital to make up for that whiff. 100M on the Smiths. A 12th overall pick on Gary. Not to mention King sucking and an always hurt Biegel - ironic considering like T J W he also played for UW. More draft capital spent on LB and corner.
This “all in” bullshit all has connections back to that fateful 2017 draft.
Who fucking cares about Jordan Love? They could select 2 or 3 more Loves and still not make up for that absolute abomination with King and Biegel over 90.
@Henry posted:Not even close. That defense was stupid good.
It's a lot closer in my opinion. That defense lost a lot when Nick Collins went down. Woodson was dominant, CMIII and Raji were good, but they also had pedestrian guys like Howard Green, AJ Hawk, Charlie Peprah, Morgan Burnett and Erik Waldron starting.
A horrific draft that is still haunting us today
The guy we passed on in 5 years has 72 sacks and 80 TFL. What did this team pay for and draft to make up that colossal fuck up?
But hey, let’s bitch and moan about what receiver they may or may not have drafted with the Love pick. Really? How about the ability to use the 12th overall pick on someone other than Gary? Or huge money in FA that didn’t have to go to the Smiths. It’s incredible.
The 2011 defense was ranked last, 32nd, in the league in yards allowed and surrendered an NFL record 4,796 passing yards despite leading the league in interceptions, with 31.
@RochNyFan posted:Noodle arm Eli Manning has won two!
@RochNyFan posted:It's a lot closer in my opinion. That defense lost a lot when Nick Collins went down. Woodson was dominant, CMIII and Raji were good, but they also had pedestrian guys like Howard Green, AJ Hawk, Charlie Peprah, Morgan Burnett and Erik Waldron starting.
The biggest thing was the takeaway stat, which is the predominant stat on defense.
I don't know if I'd call Burnett or Hawk pedestrian at that point. Peprah came up huge at the right time. Green was a pick up right before the playoffs and one huge play justified his entire time on the team. Hell, remember Pat Lee? Even he made some plays in the Super Bowl.
This year's defense, they were having considerable problems with the run by the end of the season and everyone knew it. The 9ers didn't beat the Packers because of Jimmy G or even Deebo Samuels. They were predictably ground down by the 9ers defense and run game when it counted most. And yes, injuries to the oline were also a big factor. Call it luck, whatever. It mattered.
It's the same thing we've seen countless times over. Good enough for the regular season, not good enough for the playoffs. Almost the exact opposite of the young 2011 team.
I truly believe if all the stupid crap with Rodgers didn't happen during the offseason and everybody was all lovey dovey right from the get go they would've had all the pieces. A lot of those moves came right before the start of the season or in season.
@RochNyFan posted:The 2011 defense was ranked last, 32nd, in the league in yards allowed and surrendered an NFL record 4,796 passing yards despite leading the league in interceptions, with 31.
Despite? Yards allowed doesn't mean much if there aren't points to go with it. It's those 31 INT that made that defense crazy good.
Pad Stafford threw for a shit ton of yards in Detroit and didn't win squat.
@Floridarob posted:Amari did not look half bad when Love was throwing him the ball. But I have a feelnig AR was not in the frame of mind to help Amari take Cobbs job.
Yes, and we joked about this very idea around here shortly after he was drafted.
So the new narrative is that Amari is a good player, but Rodgers was holding him back.
I sure as hell hope so
@Henry posted:During practice, sure.
Playoff games, especially ones where your ST gave up 10 points, not so much.
Pinning a loss on one pass is rather silly don't you think?
Get a couple of first downs and maybe there would not be blocked punt.
@Henry posted:The biggest thing was the takeaway stat, which is the predominant stat on defense.
I don't know if I'd call Burnett or Hawk pedestrian at that point. Peprah came up huge at the right time. Green was a pick up right before the playoffs and one huge play justified his entire time on the team. Hell, remember Pat Lee? Even he made some plays in the Super Bowl.
This year's defense, they were having considerable problems with the run by the end of the season and everyone knew it. The 9ers didn't beat the Packers because of Jimmy G or even Deebo Samuels. They were predictably ground down by the 9ers defense and run game when it counted most. And yes, injuries to the oline were also a big factor. Call it luck, whatever. It mattered.
It's the same thing we've seen countless times over. Good enough for the regular season, not good enough for the playoffs. Almost the exact opposite of the young 2011 team.
I truly believe if all the stupid crap with Rodgers didn't happen during the offseason and everybody was all lovey dovey right from the get go they would've had all the pieces. A lot of those moves came right before the start of the season or in season.
Maybe we're talking about different years. Green was picked up in 2010, and yes, with Collins, Woodson, Desmond Bishop, Cullen Jenkins and Raji, that was a very good defense. 2011 version was a step back. They were dead last in rankings and gave up more than 400 yards per game. Woodson and all the picks covered up a lot of warts. 2021 defense was 13th overall and 8th in NFL with 26 forced turnovers.
@Tschmack posted:A horrific draft that is still haunting us today
The guy we passed on in 5 years has 72 sacks and 80 TFL. What did this team pay for and draft to make up that colossal fuck up?
But hey, let’s bitch and moan about what receiver they may or may not have drafted with the Love pick. Really? How about the ability to use the 12th overall pick on someone other than Gary? Or huge money in FA that didn’t have to go to the Smiths. It’s incredible.
TJ Watt catch a lot of passes?
Because by your logic if they had drafted TJ Watt they wouldn't need any other OLBs, WRs or skill players in general.
@Henry posted:Circular logic.
Any relation to pretzel?
Similar but not as tasty. Nor performed by Steely Dan.
I don't disagree btw but you just can't excuse ST that are so indescribably bad.
In 2010, plays were made when they needed to get made. Eagles and Bears games ended with picks. Falcons game effectively ended with that pick 6 before halftime. Steelers game hinged on two turnovers - Nick's pick 6 and Pickett/CMIII fumble. Those all weren't just turnovers. They were turnovers at important times. They haven't had those plays in their recent playoff losses.
@RochNyFan posted:Maybe we're talking about different years. Green was picked up in 2010, and yes, with Collins, Woodson, Desmond Bishop, Cullen Jenkins and Raji, that was a very good defense. 2011 version was a step back. They were dead last in rankings and gave up more than 400 yards per game. Woodson and all the picks covered up a lot of warts. 2021 defense was 13th overall and 8th in NFL with 26 forced turnovers.
Yes, my bad. I made that 2010 season into 2011 Super Bowl jump.
Shit, now I have to start over again.
How about this, I acknowledge your points as correct and will simply say I would like for the Packers to try for a Super Bowl at least one more time.
@ammo posted:From the book America's Quarterback, Bart Starr and the rise of the NFL by Keith Dunnavant. Page 275. Look it up:
Reassured by an intense workout by Zeke Bratkowski convincing him Montana's arm was strong enough Starr decided to draft the former Notre Dame star.
As both head coach and general manager the choice was his. He was attracked to the QBs unmistakeable leadership qualities.
The Packers remained a team with many glaring needs, especially on defense. The defensive coaches pushed him to by pass Montana and draft Johnson. Starr deferred to their experience. In later years Starr conceded it was one of his worst blunders as coach and GM. "There is no doubt I blew it. There is no doubt I made a terrible mistake" said Starr in later years.
So there you have it, straight from the man himself.
What I have always heard.
The Green Bay Packers made the 49'ers dynasty.
@Henry posted:Yes, my bad. I made that 2010 season into 2011 Super Bowl jump.
Shit, now I have to start over again.
How about this, I acknowledge your points as correct and will simply say I would like for the Packers to try for a Super Bowl at least one more time.
You and me both, Henry, following whichever path they choose.
@RochNyFan posted:The 2011 defense was ranked last, 32nd, in the league in yards allowed and surrendered an NFL record 4,796 passing yards despite leading the league in interceptions, with 31.
It was merciful that they didn't get to the SB and have Brady tear them apart.